Welsh Spelling Test

[41st]

A little challenge for the members.
Posted here are the three different variants of the Welsh Regiment Helmet Plate Centre, with one 'red herring'.
These are all genuine pieces.
What are the differences and the chronological order for the centres?
One piece of advice is that K&K will only tell you about two of the variations.
Get your books out and give it a go.
Ticker is not allowed as he's got access to real research and 'yn Gymraeg'.
Hwyl fawr,
Kevin

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Kevin.
Thank you for the excellent pics and the brain-teaser.
From my rather untidy and disorganised notes, I have four Welsh Regiment motto spellings to offer from the various sources as indicated...but all rather vague I'm afraid. Would love to have these points clarified. Regards Jeff

(1) "Gwell angau na chywllydd" (sealed pattern 1890? K&K and David Linaker)
(2) "Gwell angau neu chywilydd" (1902- ? K&K and David Linaker)
(3) "Gwell augau neu chwilydd" (HPC 1013029 Buywyze web site 2009)
(4) "Gwell angau na chywilydd" (HPC 1013028 Buywyze web site 2009)

[41st]

Jeff,
You're on the right track, but as they say 'no banana' at the moment.
Pob lwc,
Kevin

['Ticker' Riley]

Originally Posted by 41st

Ticker is not allowed as he's got access to real research and 'yn Gymraeg'.

Well I don’t know, banned from having a go - a fella could get a complex!!

Very nice pieces you have there Kevin. I hope one day to be able to see more of your collection in all its glory when I come down to Cardiff, I’m sure it’s a sight to behold if your albums are anything to go by. An interesting motto this – “Better Death than Shame” (sometimes translated as “Better Death than Dishonour”). I’m surprised Andy or Griff haven’t had a go at things yet, anyroad I look forward to being enlightened later on!

Best regards

Martin

[41st]

Martin,
Drwg gan fi, ond it's too easy for you with your rescources.
Technically it could be translated as "better death not dishonour.
As an aside I was in Trefdraeth all last week and had a scout around. Did you know there is a little militaria dealer in Cardigan and one a little further north?
I'll tell you where after I've been there first.
Brecon on Saturday, sometimes worth the effort, sometimes not.
Hwyl,
Kevin

[cossack]

I thought Brecon fair was usually on a Sunday or is this something different???
Andy

[41st]

Andy,
Quite right it is Sunday (tomorrow), not today. Must have been at the sherry when I wrote that..
Kevin

[Jeff Mc William]

Hi Kevin
Before this thread slips quietly off page 1,would it be possible to put me out of my misery and reveal the correct chronological order of these spellings ?

['Ticker' Riley]

Hello Kevin

As I mentioned to you yesterday at Brecon I was off Forum for sometime towards the end of last year, so have been trying to catch up on things a little lately and see we still don’t have the answer to this teaser of yours. Perhaps I might, therefore, be permitted to post up the following:

The above extract is from the Hansard for 9 August 1888, which makes interesting reading, though how relevant it is to your question I can’t say - still maybe Jeff, or other Forum members, might like to take a stab at things? As a passing comment the motto “Gwell angau na chywilydd” seems to also have been used by a number of Welsh gentry families, including the Basset family of Beaupré in Glamorganshire, where it is inscribed on the porch if their castle! Anyway, hope you don’t mind me offering up the above snippets, but like I say perhaps it might help someone have a go at answering things. I’d certainly like to know!!

Best regards

Martin

[REMEVMBEA1]

I'd be a bit wary of using the spelling from Hansard as proof of anything as it appears they can't even spell Merthyr Tydfil correctly , there being no V in the Welsh language. Another thing to be aware of is that spellings in North and South Wales vary , in fact words vary for the same thing Milk being the most frequently quoted word (Llaeth in the North and Llefrith in the South I think)

[cossack]

Originally Posted by REMEVMBEA1

I'd be a bit wary of using the spelling from Hansard as proof of anything as it appears they can't even spell Merthyr Tydfil correctly , there being no V in the Welsh language. Another thing to be aware of is that spellings in North and South Wales vary , in fact words vary for the same thing Milk being the most frequently quoted word (Llaeth in the North and Llefrith in the South I think)

Other way round llaeth in the South!

[davec2]

It's all too much for me, I spent weeks thinking Kevin's name was Hwyl but I am a bit slow.......and I've had family in Swansea for well over fifty years...

Dave.

[41st]

Martin has it in one. That's why I said he wasn't allowed in the first post.

The initial spelling was nonsensical as reported in Hansard. There were two further attempts to get it right which is why you get the three variations on the helmet plate centres.

As to why this occured in the first place the other posts in this thread about variations in the use of words between North and South also hold true to a smaller extent between East and West. Add in English transalations to historic Welsh and you have a recipe for disaster.

The motto is one from an old established Welsh family, I'll post that information when I get home tonight.

Just to prove the difference in the use of the language, last Friday I was in Caernarfon (North Wales) with my family when my son (who is a fluent Welsh speaker from Cardiff) was speaking to a local lady in Welsh, they had to switch to English as she could not understand him.

Earlier in the day when we were at Portmeirion my wife and I both asked in Welsh where the "ty bach" (toilet) was for the kids. The local staff didn't understand as they use a different word (it wasn't toiledau either). It wasn't until we saw the name outside a toilet block in Anglesea that we twigged what the difference was.

An appropriate post for today as it turns out.

Dydd Gŵyl Dewi Sant Hapus Pawb.

[41st]

I forgot to add that the red herring was the last on the right as this is a pagri badge with the same correct spelling as the second from right HPC.
Hwyl fawr,