York and Lancaster broken slider?

[badger123]

Originally Posted by Tim B.

Just confirming that the actual slider placement is not some determining or identifying factor on era of production for these.

Here's my York & Lancaster example and I noted the slider is soldered more in the middle of the rose and not above it, just under the rectangular braze hole, like many others I've seen.

I assumed it was just a manufacturer issue of placement when soldering it. Ivan's group shot in post #9 seems to confirm this?

Tim

Yes, I would say a manufacturers issue and very much dependant on where the sweat holes are and where each manufacturer soldered the slider.

Some examples of different locations of silder:
Pic 1. Stratton
Pic 2. F Narborough
Pic 3. Unknown but long pre 1906 slider (clipped)
Pic 4. JR Gaunt
Pic 5. Unknown maker

Ivan

[Tim B.]

Hi Ivan,

Yes, I understand different manufacturers would have differences or variations between makers but I think I'm talking about one manufacturer here.

I've noticed the same style of Y&L badge with the same pattern of braze holes (assume same manufacturer) and the majority I see have the slider soldered directly under the larger rectangular braze hole, while a minority of these (such as my example) has the slider soldered lower on the rose and somewhat centered between the four smaller round holes.

Seems like it would have been set as to where the slider was to be attached but, if hand done, then the person doing the work could have just placed it where they deemed fit.

Probably nothing more than that but I found it interesting and wondered if it was a way to differentiate these from one period or another. I've seen similar subtle changes made to other insignia and it was a way to identify them by periods when they were actually manufactured.

Tim

[KLR]

I’m fascinated by all the minor differences in badge construction and it is a very valuable contribution to their study. However, we should remember that such differences, and changes, were not always defined by the various manufacturers, quite often the WO (via the RACD) decreed changes in fixings. The surviving archives of at least one manufacturer noted compliance with these WO orders.

The first East Lancashire Regt cap badge was Patt 4557/1897 (QVC) changed to 4557A/1901 (KC).
The first Yorkshire Regt cap badge was Patt 4694/1898 (coronet over A in wreath) then changed to 4694A/1903 (coronet over A with rose and scrolls).

In November 1905 The WO decreed that the 'vertical shanks' (= slider) of the E Lancs and the Yorks Regt should not be attached to the top of the badge but henceforth to the middle. This was a strict order, noted in the RACD ledger vol 14 - E Lancs, 2nd Nov, p55; Yorks 20th Nov, p60.

Other, probably better known, orders concerned the change from loops to vertical shanks: ‘existing Fd Cap badges shall be used and to be fitted with a vertical shank’ (5th March 1903, RACD 11, 203). On the 28th March 1906 they demanded that the ‘vertical shank be reduced in length, this being too long for the N[ew]P[attern] forage cap’ (RACD vols 13, 169 and14, 80.) – the NP (Brodrick) cap was introduced in January of that year.

[Tim B.]

KLR,

Yes, that is getting more to the root of my question here; can we possibly better date some of these pieces by the location of where the slider is actually attached to the badge?

We see a dating of sorts with the length of sliders but was there also further information or, clarification, to specifications on where sliders were to be mounted?

I know in U.S. insignia, early on at least, manufacturers had a lot of latitude in design and method of attaching hardware. Specifications were not strictly adhered to, nor enforced, until post-WW2 when uniform insignia was...uniform in design and appearance between all contracted manufacturers.

It may be nothing here but wanted to ask.

Thank you,
Tim

[KLR]

Yes, I think you are right - but it was earlier than 'post 2WW' in the UK. When the new King's cap badge was authorised in late 1926 (Patt 10042/1926) there were three main manufacturer's 'types' but within these three there was a greater homogeneity. By the time of the new 1950 Pattern (14312/1950) the design was even more strictly enforced. I suspect this happened in other units.
A useful resource for OR badges is the original 'Sealed Pattern' - cards with the badge type sealed on them. There are hundreds deposited at either the NAM or the IWM. There are also cards with officer's insignia - cap badges, collar badge,s buttons etc etc which showed the 'official' pattern and were also distributed to designated tailors where officers bought their (badged) uniforms.

[Tim B.]

Yes, it would be nice to get those and look them over.

Is there a way to possibly start a data base on the forum of these and consolidate them into it's own section? Probably not if the material is copyrighted.

Below, is an excerpt of a specification sheet for the U.S. submarine combat patrol pin to show what goes into these.

Early on, the spec sheets were not always this clear cut and were made available for purchase (I assume by those desiring to obtain government contracts for insignia during wartime). As such, I imagine a few didn't bother and simply obtained a retail specimen to use as a basis for their own design, hence why we see so many design variations between manufacturers and in different materials. Today, everything is identical within services and manufacturers no longer have any artistic license to veer away from the mil-specs.

I edited this post by adding a spec sheet instruction from 1915 on Army insignia. You can see the cost of the specification booklet was .10

The last image is actually from a 1903 dated instruction and it shows these were pretty general in nature.

Tim