Gaunt Buttons

[Chipper]

Hello good people from the world of buttons. I have a probably simple and possibly silly question:

for the period covering the Great War, (and I understand button designs can span decades) did Gaunt make all/most regimental buttons? Primarily I am interested in the line regiments and Corps - such as Machine Gun, RFC etc.

Many thanks for any info

Cheers, Tim

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Chipper

Hello good people from the world of buttons. I have a probably simple and possibly silly question:

for the period covering the Great War, (and I understand button designs can span decades) did Gaunt make all/most regimental buttons? Primarily I am interested in the line regiments and Corps - such as Machine Gun, RFC etc.

Many thanks for any info

Cheers, Tim

Hi Tim

In a word "no"!. They did produce a considerable quantity of buttons but there were many manufacturers during that period. It also depends to some extent whether you mean Officers or O/R's buttons. They produced both but possibly more O/R's than many other makers, at a guess. Also, bear in mind most O/R's of line regiments wore general service (royal arms) buttons at the time.

David

PS..... a word of caution - be wary of any large size buttons purporting to be WW1 period and which have a "GAUNT // LONDON" backmark, they may well be 1970's restrikes.

[Chipper]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Hi Tim

In a word "no"!. They did produce a considerable quantity of buttons but there were many manufacturers during that period. It also depends to some extent whether you mean Officers or O/R's buttons. They produced both but possibly more O/R's than many other makers, at a guess. Also, bear in mind most O/R's of line regiments wore general service (royal arms) buttons at the time.

David

PS..... a word of caution - be wary of any large size buttons purporting to be WW1 period and which have a "GAUNT // LONDON" backmark, they may well be 1970's restrikes.

Thanks David. Sorry, I left out some info! Primarily I am looking at officers guilt buttons. I have seen 4 major back marks so far (and this is just my observation), being:

J.R GAUNT & SON LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGd
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGld

There appear to be dots under the lower case letters, but hard to tell from pics.

Thanks for the info

Cheers, Tim

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by Chipper

Thanks David. Sorry, I left out some info! Primarily I am looking at officers guilt buttons. I have seen 4 major back marks so far (and this is just my observation), being:

J.R GAUNT & SON LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGd
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGld

There appear to be dots under the lower case letters, but hard to tell from pics.

Thanks for the info

Cheers, Tim

Hi Tim

You should be OK, as regards authenticity, with all the above.

As regards manufacturers of Officers buttons during WW1 period - Gaunts and quite a few others such as Jennens, Firmin, etc.

David

[Cribyn]

Hello Tim

Gaunt used a large variety of backmarks over the years and it is very difficult to pin any down to a precise period (unlike some other makers who changed addresses and used these as backmarks).

The backmarks you list are all consistent with a First World War time period in my view but they were used both before and after the war, so it would be almost impossible to link one particular button to the war using a backmark.

The more information on the backmark, the earlier it tends to be. As David pointed out Gaunt were using a simple 'Gaunt London' backmark in the 1970s at the time they reproduced so many buttons and this is a dead give away when seen on buttons purporting to be First World War period - Royal Munster Fusiliers and Royal Dublin Fusiliers are two that instantly spring to mind but there are many, many more.

Stick with J' R Gaunt & Son' and variations thereof and you can't go far wrong.

Regards
Roger

[davidwyke]

Just to follow on from the above. The backmarks you have listed highlight an important point relating to backmarks in general.

The first one is without "Ltd". Gaunts became a limited company in 1899 (at least I think it was 1899, I'm not at home and can't check - Roger will shout at me if it's the wrong date! ) It's easy to assume that because there is no "Ltd" then the button must pre-date 1899. Not so, they continued to use that backmark for many years, alongside those which included "Ltd".

The point I'm trying to make is that while backmarks can be very useful in dating buttons, it's best not to place too much emphasis on the exact wording.

David

Having said the above, it's certainly true that Gaunts didn't use "Gaunt / London" on large size buttons until long after WW1. There is much debate as to when it was first used, some would say as early as mid 1940's, others no earlier than c.1950. It certainly wasn't used on any genuine large size buttons of the disbanded (1922) Irish Regiments.

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by davidwyke

Just to follow on from the above. The backmarks you have listed highlight an important point relating to backmarks in general.

The first one is without "Ltd". Gaunts became a limited company in 1899 (at least I think it was 1899, I'm not at home and can't check - Roger will shout at me if it's the wrong date! ) It's easy to assume that because there is no "Ltd" then the button must pre-date 1899. Not so, they continued to use that backmark for many years, alongside those which included "Ltd".

The point I'm trying to make is that while backmarks can be very useful in dating buttons, it's best not to place too much emphasis on the exact wording.

David

Having said the above, it's certainly true that Gaunts didn't use "Gaunt / London" on large size buttons until long after WW1. There is much debate as to when it was first used, some would say as early as mid 1940's, others no earlier than c.1950. It certainly wasn't used on any genuine large size buttons of the disbanded (1922) Irish Regiments.

"The first one is without "Ltd". Gaunts became a limited company in 1899 (at least I think it was 1899, I'm not at home and can't check" - Spot on, David!

I am not sure if this is the place to start a debate on the 'Gaunt London' backmark but I would love to hear other views on when they started using this backmark - and this applies, of course, to large size buttons only.

There are many King's crown buttons with the 'Gaunt London' backmark and because many of them are known to be 1970s reproductions (the 'Gaunt London' 24th Lancers and 27th Lancers are obvious examples of non-genuine ones) it is often assumed that all King's crown buttons with 'Gaunt London' are 1970s reproductions. However, nobody seems to know exactly what Gaunt did reproduce in 1970. I have often heard it said that it was the war-time raised cavalry units (two of them mentioned above), the Irish Regiments disbanded in 1922 and those of the cavalry regiments amalgamated in the 1920s and other 'sought after' buttons - the latter without any further explanation. I have seen many Yeomanry buttons with a King's crown and 'Gaunt London' that I would almost certainly guarantee to be 1970s manufacture.

However, I have some King's crown Royal Air Force buttons marked 'Gaunt London' and I find it hard to believe that Gaunt would go to the trouble of reproducing such a common and hardly 'sought after' RAF button in the 1970s! This would seem to suggest that they were using the 'Gaunt London' backmark before 1952 or thereabouts.

Does anyone have a definitive list of what Gaunt did produce in the 1970s or any other thoughts on the matter?

Roger

[Chipper]

Many thanks to both of you gentlemen.

I have been kicking tyres trying to gather some knowledge, and very much appreciate both of your advice.

I realised early on that there is no such thing as a "Great War button" for most regiments, and so I think I will be looking at buttons that simply have WW1 inside their timeline. I grabbed a copy of Howard Ripley's book, which has been great as well.

So again, thanks, and like Roy, I'm hooked. Just don't tell my wife.....

Cheers, Tim

[Frank Kelley]

What about GAUNT LONDON ENG ?

Originally Posted by Chipper

Thanks David. Sorry, I left out some info! Primarily I am looking at officers guilt buttons. I have seen 4 major back marks so far (and this is just my observation), being:

J.R GAUNT & SON LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGd
J.R GAUNT & SON Ltd LONDON ENGld

There appear to be dots under the lower case letters, but hard to tell from pics.

Thanks for the info

Cheers, Tim

[Frank Kelley]

Anyone, any thoughts on the use of this back stamp?

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

What about GAUNT LONDON ENG ?

[Rob Miller]

Hi Frank

I went through my Gaunt buttons recently to see if the different back marks could be linked to different eras, the only two "J.R.GAUNT & SON LONDON ENG" were both Officers medium sized which made me wonder if it was an abbreviation to fit on a smaller area, but looking at them again there are two dots after the "ENG" one of which which may be a tiny "D"?

They were

The Queens (West Surry) pre 1909
The West Yorkshire Reg (POW Own) post 1936

So pretty inconclusive datewise too.

Rob

[Chipper]

Hi Frank, in my limited searches for gaunt buttons for the line regiments, I have not come across this mark. Hopefully a real button person will come along with some info

cheers, Tim

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

What about GAUNT LONDON ENG ?

[btns]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

What about GAUNT LONDON ENG ?

I have found it on 9 buttons, most of them are these small mounted mess dress buttons

[Frank Kelley]

Okay, many thanks gentlemen, I think I can reasonably assume that the use of this particular back stamp is likely to have been brought about by the size of the particular buttons upon which it was used, rather than anything else.