North Staffordshire anodised cap badge

[ukbrits]

Hi Guys,
On reading a few earlier posts on the forum I have noticed the debates on whether the North Staffordshire Regiments anodised cap badge was ever issued or not, with some Forum members in that Regiment commenting that it was not.
I have to agree with some of the findings that there do appear to be plentiful amounts of North Staffs anodised badges with J.R Gaunt London sliders available for collectors to purchase.
However, I have recently discovered a North Staffords anodised cap badge made by "Dowler" Birmingham (see pics) with correct early style slider which looks a quality badge to me.
So which ones genuine or are they both genuine issued badges? Or is the Dowler badge ,one of a small number made at the time of sealing? Has the J.R Gaunt London a/a badge been "re- run" to death for the benefit of the collector.
At the end of the day you would have thought this should be a relatively scarce badge.
Your opinions will be greatly appreciated as allways.
Best Regards.
UKbrits

[Mike H]

I have both,if you put the pair(Dowler and Gaunt)together there are distinct differences between the two.
Both anodised badges north and south staffs are in the museum the last time i went.
But as for the question of issue,i really dont know.Could possibly have been issued to recruits at the depot.

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

The North Staffordshire Regiment was officially authorised for issue and can be found in the CCN of 1963.

It seems to have actully been issued to with a return made of a cap badge prices which can be found in Annex A to Eastern Command dated 25th November 1966. The price of the badge was 5 shillings and 3 pennies each.

The version I have is marked 'J.R. GAUNT LONDON' and I'm pretty happy with mine. Note that this mark has been found on standard sealed pattern cards dated from the 22nd April 1958 to the 24th March 1966 so all dates reconcile with the mark on the badge, the CCN of 1963 and Annex A of 1966.

For the 'DOWLER. BIRMINGHAM' harked badges again all reconciles with this mark being found on standard sealed pattern cards dated from the 6th February 1964 to the 30th June 1975.

Why the two exist is maybe due to the original manufacturer being unable or unwilling to tender for a second contract - only company records can really help us out here.

Yes, I have been busy...

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Again the date is indicative of the badge being for Cadets or TA and not the Regular Bn who had gone in 1958.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Again the date is indicative of the badge being for Cadets or TA and not the Regular Bn who had gone in 1958.

Hi Alan,

The CCN entry of 1963 was under Regular Infantry of the Line and not Territorial Army. This could be a carry over from a previous CCN document though but it does very much imply that the badge was at some stage issued to The North Staffordshire Regiment as a regular unit.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris.

Both Staffs Bns became part of the mercian bde in 1958 and wore the mercian badge. They subsequently amalgamated into one Bn.
I cannot see why the Regular Bn would need a badge sealed in a/a in the 1960s.

Alan

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Chris.

Both Staffs Bns became part of the mercian bde in 1958 and wore the mercian badge. They subsequently amalgamated into one Bn.
I cannot see why the Regular Bn would need a badge sealed in a/a in the 1960s.

Alan

Hi Alan,

No idea but the official documentation states that the badge was authorised for issue and that it had been priced at some stage which implies that replacements were available to those soldiers who had lost any previously issued to them. I also have similar documantation for the South Staffodshire Regiment and for both units replacement the Staffordshire Regiment. I have most of the correspondance from it's inception of pencil sketches to actual issue.

Also, at the same time the Staffordshire Regt badge was being created the single Staffordshire knot was rejected as an emblem by the College of Arms on at least three occasions for a specfic and important hereldry reason which I currently cannot remember (I have the notes though). This of course puts paid to the 5th/6th Battn item usually found as a closed casting with casting lines around the edge and with lugs. This badge is probably made in zink.

Regards

Chris



Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Hi Alan,

Here are some pattern details:

North Staffordshire Regt

Pattern No - 19536
Sealed - 26 April 1966
NSN - 8455-99-973-9434
Maker Mark - DOWLER.BIRMINGHAM
Source - Standard pattern card, Imperial War Museum

South Staffordshire Regiment

Pattern No - 16958
Sealed - 18/10/1955
CB No. - CB 7520
Source - Derived from LoC dated 31th September 1956, Change C 7660


Staffordshire Regiment

Pattern No - 20254
Sealed - Unknown
NSN - 8455-99-135-3707
Source - UK/SC/2124 Issue 11 - 12th August 2009, Table 7 - Product Listing

Regards

Chris

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Also, at the same time the Staffordshire Regt badge was being created the single Staffordshire knot was rejected as an emblem by the College of Arms on at least three occasions for a specfic and important hereldry reason which I currently cannot remember (I have the notes though). This of course puts paid to the 5th/6th Battn item usually found as a closed casting with casting lines around the edge and with lugs. This badge is probably made in zink.

From what i know of the county history is that the Knot are the arms of the De Stafford family and not the county as such,i would have thought that they would have to grant permission for its use.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

From what i know of the county history is that the Knot are the arms of the De Stafford family and not the county as such,i would have thought that they would have to grant permission for its use.

Mike, it could have been that but the College of Arms used a specific term (which may have been in Latin) to describe the knot design or it's standing in heraldry stating that it could not be used by itself but had to be incorporated with other emblems.

When I get time I will look this up and report back here.

Regards

Chris

[fougasse1940]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Mike, it could have been that but the College of Arms used a specific term (which may have been in Latin) to describe the knot design or it's standing in heraldry stating that it could not be used by itself but had to be incorporated with other emblems.

When I get time I will look this up and report back here.

Regards

Chris

Interesting, according to Churchill's 'History of the British Army infantry collar badge' p. 167, the Stafford Knot or 'Knot Simpliceter' was worn as a collar badge without any other emblems by the 38th (1st Staffordshire) Regiment of Foot, since probably 1782.
Did the College of Arms have no say in the matter of collar badges, or did they rule differently on the cap badge and collars?

Rgds,
fougasse1940

[54Bty]

From the College of Arms web site:

The office of Inspector of Regimental Colours was instituted in 1806 in order to regulate the design of the various Colours, Guidons, and Standards of the Army. Regulations for these had been laid down in 1768, but were widely ignored and designs left to the whim of individual Colonels. The first Inspector was George Nayler (1764-1831), York Herald, later Garter King of Arms.

[matti467]

Hello guys, been following this with interest. Found this on to add to the confusion I have a book titled Yeomanry Wars by Peter D. Athawes. At the rear, in black and white are a series of plates. Item 62 is the badges of the Staffordshire Yeomanry and the first one is a Staffs knot unencumbered by any other devise. I hope I have been helpful rather than the opposite.
Yours Matti

[dak580]

G’day Guys

I’ve been doing a little digging around for the 5th/6th Staffordshire (TA) badge.

The museum has a few pictures of the TA wearing the North Staffs badge. Being a Stoke based unit this would make sense.

This would have been in the late 50’s early 60’s so the badge would have been a/a

Cheers
John

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by dak580

G’day Guys

I’ve been doing a little digging around for the 5th/6th Staffordshire (TA) badge.

The museum has a few pictures of the TA wearing the North Staffs badge. Being a Stoke based unit this would make sense.

This would have been in the late 50’s early 60’s so the badge would have been a/a

Cheers
John

Hi John,

Just because the era was the in the late 50’s early 60’s does not mean that the badge can be assumed to be A/A as the general rule is that existing stocks must be used up before new patterns are issued.

The only safe calls for an A/A badge to have been authorised for issue will be via a range of documents such as the List of Changes (LoC) where an item is given the status of 'NEW PATTERN' or 'INTRODUCTION' via a change that is NOT ONE of intent only (such as change C 4714 was) and preferably containing words like "...has been created as a new pattern and is hereby authorised for issue..." making up part of the designation text.

Other documents such as the CCN/COSA/JSP 768 where the badge is stated as 'Anodised', 'A/A' or 'A.A' will also surfice as will a separate regulation where an item again is recorded as authorised for issue. e.g. use of General Service Corps badge for ACF units not affiliated to a local TA battalion.

It also has to be emphasised that just because a badge is authorised for issue it in no way means that it was actually manufactured let alone issue for active service wear.

By looking a photograph of a specific badge it would be very difficult to determine if a badge is one particular material or not and would be a very long bow in my opionion to draw by matching an era to the material content of a badge.

Regards

Chris