King's (Liverpool) Regt. '26 pattern badges

[kingsman]

Comments invited please.

1. Sweetheart badge conversion. Construction differs from others I have seen, appears originaly have been lugged n/s.

2. Normal with sweat holes (5)

3. normal no sweat holes.

Rest on next post

4. Striking as above, pre curved to fit against cap, ribbon has OSD finish which was applied prior to attachment.

[kingsman]

Photos badge 4

[kingsman]

Forgot to note torque on badge 1 different.

[KLR]

Kingsman, I don't have time now, I'll come back to you tonight. But well done, these are SOME of the many varieties I've been cataloguing.
Your first one is 1st Bn, the others are what I've defined as 10042/1926 Type 1 and Type 3.
("torse" not "torque"; badge 4 has nothing to do with any OSD "finish")
Julian

[KLR]

There is actually an unofficial badge worn by the 1st Bn KLR between c1903 and 1926.
I'm still trying to check the 'start' date but I'm certain about the end date.
I have an identical one, but also one with loops and a Gaunt tablet.

I also have a 1926 pattern with J.R.GAUNT.LONDON on the slider, height of letters 9mm, length of lettering 11.5mm - which I'm convinced is genuine. (I think the debate concluded that even if there was a . in the middle, it was OK if the lettering was this size).

Peter DOES have some of these 1st Bn badges BUT his carded one is a 1926 pattern - what I call type 3 with straight legs and short tail that was probably introduced just before or during the war. The interesting thing is that it has an EIIR royal crest which puts it at 1953 at the earliest. That is after the 1950 pattern was introduced, replacing the 1926 pattern!
Julian

[Alan O]

I thought that Julian would enjoy seeing that one. This is mine. It has the same reinforcing bar but unbroken. This would suggest that this was a standard part of the original design rather than added later. Mine agin has the small JRGaunt London mark.

This mark is found on private purchase badges (ie not made for issue as WD stock) or on a few WW2 and late 1940s badges (mostly cavalry and yeomanry).

Considering the prices that this variant seems to command then a good find if it was being sold in a repro box.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

Hi Julian, Thank you for your informative post. Your right I havent looked at the badge closely, for a few pounds I thought we might have some value out of the badge through good conversation. I`m also a but of numpty in your specialist area so it doesnt surprise me that I mis-identified it.

Its a hard badge to nit pick....but if I were to nit pick it would be that die flaw on the obverse of the base scroll. Every feature is as a good badge should be.

Thank you for the information Alan. I`m curious as to what price these badges command are they hard to find?

Thank you for your help.

[Alan O]

Every one of these I have seen has the same die-flawed scroll. From memory the last few I saw sold on ebay went for about £20-25. With the exception of Julian's reasearch, I have not seen this type attributed to any particular unit by a dealer but clearly some people thought that they knew that they had some significance to pay so much for it. That is a lot of money for a maker's variation without some attibution to a particular Bn whether that be Regular, TF, OTC or what ever.

Alan

[Jibba Jabba]

In the same box of reproductions was in my opinion an unusual Liverpool Regiment badge. Yet again what I thought was a 1925-1960 pattern. Please forgive me, I have no photographs as this badge is still currently residing in a dealers reproduction box.

The badge was unsual for a two reasons. The slider was thinner than usual and at least 25 percent longer than a regular slider. The second unsual aspect was that the the badge was half white metal and half brass. What I mean to say it that even the horse of hanover had layer of brass behind the white metal. Some sweat holes were present.

So your probably wondering why didnt I buy this badge? Well, for the simple reason that when I tried to bend the slider, it seamed to be rather weak on the braise at the back of the badge. For this simple and maybe foolish reason I rejected it.

Does anyone know anything about this badge? I hope it not some kind of rare topee badge Was the basis of my rejection justified? Is this a known fake?

Thank you.

[Peter Brydon]

J.J,

I actually have a number of examples of this badge, the example which I am missing is the osd example.

Note the continuous twisting of the scroll and the lack of apostrophe in Kings.

I must admit I had not looked at the badge closely in your original post, well spotted Julian.

A picture of this badge from an article in The Kingsman magazine of 1930 is attached

P.B.

[KLR]

Reading this again carefully, I think I know which one of the 1926 types it is. There's only one which has a charateristically long slider and that is with straight hind legs and a long tail. Actually I have divided this particular one into three sub types and one of the distinguishing factors is the number, shape and location of the brazing holes. That's the easy bit ...

BUT I have no idea about the horse being brass with applied WM on top ??? That sounds very odd. It can't be an all GM 5th Bn badge as that would be in one piece and therefore wouldn't have any braze holes !

One another matter, the 1926 pattern (10046/1926) was made obsolete in 1950 not 1960, in fact the regiment ceased to exist in 1958 (as does my interest in it's badges !)

[KLR]

John, I agree entirely but I don't know (YET). As soon as I find the relevant paperwork for this particuar case (and I think I know where it might be), I'll tell you !
But I'd be v interested to hear of any other cases.

Incidentally, as Alan noted, this particular badge is quite common . It can obviously be seen on hundreds of photographs taken before 1926 - it was worn occasonally by other battaions than the 1st in the 1st WW. I've certainly seen many go for less than 20. Of the five that I have two were bought for less than 10 ! There was quite clearly a variety of dies used as seen by various details on the horse. Although the flaw on the scroll is very common - suggesting they were using fewer scroll dies - there are some examples without. Although vertical shanks (sliders) were generally introduced in 1906, I think this badge didn't get them until 1908. There are 2 types of S&G but only one type of OSD known.

[Peter Brydon]

Attached is a photo of 2nd Lt Sidney Webster 1/6 Kings Liverpools( kia 30/11/17 ) wearing the badge being discussed ( presumably before transfering to the 6th Bn.)

I will be honest and say I am not sure if the badges being worn are bronze and reflecting the photographers flash, or are silver and gilt

Also note his collars are unofficial pattern and not those in accordance with dress regulations

P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

I think I may have something similar to the badge JJ is talking about, I will
have to open up one of my display cases and have a look a the back of the badges.

I have come across many unusual Kings badges over the years including the one in the attached photos. It has the poorest lugs I have ever seen and looks as if an atempt has been made to file down the details on the badge to make it easier to clean,but then the file has slipped taking a chunk out of the scroll.

Also attached is a picture of another badge where the owner has managed to remove the detail on the scroll and torse and has then had the title "Kings" engraved in the middle and his initials DS engraved at either side.

P.B.

[Peter Brydon]

In the hope it might be of some interest,here are some photos of the unoffical officers collar badges.
P.B.