British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Canadian Military Insignia > Cavalry and Armoured Units

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-01-10, 07:05 AM
Doug N's Avatar
Doug N Doug N is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 247
Default 16th CLH & General Order 41/1928

The attached scan shows the two principal variants of the 16th Light Horse badge. For my purposes here, I’m going to call these the ‘skinny moose’ & the ‘fat moose’ patterns.

The Mazeas pre - ’14 reference book shows the ‘skinny moose’ authorized by General Order 100 in 1907. That author’s ’20-’50 badge book shows the ‘fat moose’ authorized by General Order 41 in 1928.

The few CEF reference books which I have, however, all suggest that both patterns were worn during WWI. Vic Taboika’s book calls the ‘skinny moose’ a Tiptaft product, implying that it may be nothing more than a manufacturer’s variant.

I found a copy of G.O. 100, the original authorization for the badge. It reads:

16th Mounted Rifles. – A cap and collar badge as described hereunder is authorized for the use of the 16th Mounted Rifles.

A moose’s head, with motto “King and Empire’ on scroll underneath
.

Here’s where I’m confused / curious: There is nothing about the ‘fat moose’
cap or collars which are inconsistent with the original description. In fact, the 1907 GO is silent regarding badge size & metals. One would assume then, that the bi-metal patterns, etc. could be worn without additional authority or amendments.

If all this is true, what exactly does G.O. 41 of 1928 say? It must speak to something, but what? I’m hoping someone on the forum has a copy & can post the text. Please hurry, I won’t sleep well until I find out!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 16 CLH.jpg (26.7 KB, 90 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-01-10, 11:38 AM
Phillip Herring's Avatar
Phillip Herring Phillip Herring is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,326
Default

Unless somebody else beats me to it, I will try and find a copy at RMC or CLFCSC.

Phil
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-01-10, 11:44 AM
jim a jim a is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,755
Default

The skinny moose doesn't look like much of a moose at all in my opinion.... and maybe what happened was that after the first batch came out the opinion of the troops that had to wear it was like mine... they might not have been happy... thus a new fat moose with better horns... but not as great of a set as it should be as the manufacturer didn't want to stray all that far from the skinny moose horns... you want a moose that looks like a moose check out the Algonquins badge. Thanks for showing the skinny moose badge. This is all supposition on my part but with the way companies operate I could see it happening... Jim
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-01-10, 05:08 PM
Doug N's Avatar
Doug N Doug N is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 247
Default

Yeah, it's one ugly critter for sure. I used to wonder if it wasn't a caribou - but apparently not.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 23-05-10, 07:08 PM
Doug N's Avatar
Doug N Doug N is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 247
Default

G.O. 41 of 1928 says this:

BADGES 16th CANADIAN LIGHT HORSE

1. The following badges are authorized for the 16th Canadian L Horse
2. OFFICERS. Badges as described hereunder. The dress regulations for the Canadian Militia 1907, pages 48 and 49, are ammended by deleting 16th Light Horse and detail of badges, and substituting threfor the following detail for the "16th CANADIAN LIGHT HORSE".

Cap Badge
In brass. A Moose's head flanked by sprays of maple leaves and supported by a ribbon bearing the motto "FOR KING AND EMPIRE" ext. h. 1 3/4 in. extr. w. 1 3/4 in.

Collar Badge
In brass. As for cap. ext. h. 1 3/16 in. ext. w. 1 3/16 in.

Shoulder Badge
In brass. The title 16th C.L.H. in half inch plain block letters and figures.

3. OTHER RANKS. Cap, collar, and shoulder badges as for Officers.


The GO cleans up a few loose ends; but 'badge-wise' the only real change is the addition of shoulder titles. Yet another badge anomaly - I don't believe the titles as authorized are something the unit ever wore.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 23-05-10, 11:32 PM
whizzbang's Avatar
whizzbang whizzbang is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 770
Default

I have also heard of the skinny moose version as a Tiptaft-made badge (I just bought one from Chris Brooker)

Is there any mention of the bi-metal version in either of these GO's? I have a white metal on gilt version and have always figured it was post-WW1 (pic attached).

Cheers, Ian.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 16CLHF.jpg (84.6 KB, 30 views)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24-05-10, 03:57 AM
Doug N's Avatar
Doug N Doug N is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oregon USA
Posts: 247
Default

Ian,
The GO's in my previous posts were copied verbatim & in their entirety. They do not mention the bi-metal badges.

Bi-metal caps & collars obviously exist - both in white metal / gilding, & in silver / gilt. I agree that these are most likely militia era pieces.

OSD badges also exist. I have examples in bronze & antiqued copper.

It would appear that both these badge patterns were without authorization, but this is not necessarily so. G.O.'s which spoke to dress & insignia were essentially revisions or addendums to the 1907 Canadian Militia Dress Regulations. The 1907 regulations contain a couple of 'loop holes' which gave the units some degree of latitude. To quote:

Corps which have been authorized to adopt a Special Badge, Crest, Device, Motto, etc., may, without further authority adopt badges of a similar character and design, and of varying sizes, to be worn on Collars and Head-dress.
All badges are in metal, unless otherwise stated. On Service Dress in Bronze.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 22-06-21, 09:39 PM
jerryheilman jerryheilman is offline
New Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Posts: 1
Default

Good day gentlemen I know I'm nearly at decade late to the discussion and though I am not a specialist in any way from some of my meanderings in The Archives of the Moose Jaw public Library and the info found it appears to me the 16th mounted rifles we're a thing perhaps a few years before the government officially gave a government order to make it so. Perhaps but I just make a guess at this that the goofier looking skinny moose badge was commisioned unofficially by the business men who lead the local Moose Jaw Squadron of the 16th.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 23-06-21, 06:24 PM
cefguy cefguy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 278
Default

All:
Interesting topic, and one that I have also wondered about. I am currently on the road and unable to measure any badges, but from the photo it appears that the fat moose badge is slightly wider and taller. Does it exactly fit the published dimensions set out in the 1928 directive? If so then the 1928 direction was to pave the way to resolve standardizing unit badges to the fat moose design thereby eliminating the skinny moose ones. If this is the case it still does not resolve the timing that the fat moose appeared on the scene. Was it one of two designs in active use in WW1 or was it new on the scene and detailed dimensionally to get rid of the skinny moose?
I wonder
Don
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:50 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.