British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > Common Forums > Reproductions, Restrikes, Fakes, Forgeries, and Copies

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-02-21, 06:37 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 10,561
Default WELSH FEATHERS LEINSTER FAKE

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324473990...p2471758.m4704

This badge was amongst a huge group of fakes. I doubt it's genuine and is likely to lack the brasing hole. Buyer beware.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-02-21, 07:19 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 3,262
Default

There were several genuine badges in that group of listings. I noted amongst others a genuine KC Para, HAC and another I forget.

Braze hole or not that one is also in my opinion genuine.

The repro curly scroll Leinsters have a die stamped reverse to ‘The Leinster’ scroll.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-02-21, 07:23 PM
Phil2M's Avatar
Phil2M Phil2M is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Essex
Posts: 6,029
Unhappy

Looks like one of the few fake types to me. I've given up trying to find a genuine one. I think the lack of bids reflects other people's opinions of it too.
__________________
"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-02-21, 07:06 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,845
Default

I have seen many mis-struck badges before but I think this is the first one I have seen where the scroll is off-centre. Looks wrong.
Cheers,
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-02-21, 08:32 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,278
Default

At £10.49 plus £1.50 I think some very lucky bidder has bagged a real bargain!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
There were several genuine badges in that group of listings. I noted amongst others a genuine KC Para, HAC and another I forget.

Braze hole or not that one is also in my opinion genuine.

The repro curly scroll Leinsters have a die stamped reverse to ‘The Leinster’ scroll.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-02-21, 04:57 PM
mac66 mac66 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Wicklow
Posts: 42
Default

It's not one that I, with my limited knowledge and experience of badge collecting, would bid on.
The seller, in the description does state " We cannot guarantee this badge is original, it is most likely a copy or restrike"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-02-21, 07:14 PM
Luke H's Avatar
Luke H Luke H is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Londoner in exile
Posts: 3,262
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac66 View Post
It's not one that I, with my limited knowledge and experience of badge collecting, would bid on.
The seller, in the description does state " We cannot guarantee this badge is original, it is most likely a copy or restrike"
Most ‘original’ and ‘genuine’ badges on eBay in fact aren’t. Sellers descriptions can work both ways. Buy every badge on its merits not on who the seller is or their story/description.

Note the small protrusion of metal on the (viewers) left plume from the front. This is seen on all the genuine curly scroll type, even the one is Alan’s album - https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=62188 . Both badges are from the same die.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 42A0F7BA-0F6C-4877-9F39-FFAFABD79AA8.jpg (76.3 KB, 104 views)
File Type: jpg 92DCFB7E-1C28-40F6-841C-06B62CE64CE1.jpg (80.7 KB, 50 views)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-02-21, 07:44 PM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Most ‘original’ and ‘genuine’ badges on eBay in fact aren’t. Sellers descriptions can work both ways. Buy every badge on its merits not on who the seller is or their story/description.

Note the small protrusion of metal on the (viewers) left plume from the front. This is seen on all the genuine curly scroll type, even the one is Alan’s album - https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=62188 . Both badges are from the same die.
I hadn't noticed that burr before, you're certainly eagle eyed. In fact there are two on mine - the other burr being slightly to the right closer to the stem.
Mark
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1580[1].jpg (45.5 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1582[1].jpg (52.4 KB, 48 views)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-02-21, 11:13 PM
mac66 mac66 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Wicklow
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Most ‘original’ and ‘genuine’ badges on eBay in fact aren’t. Sellers descriptions can work both ways. Buy every badge on its merits not on who the seller is or their story/description.

Note the small protrusion of metal on the (viewers) left plume from the front. This is seen on all the genuine curly scroll type, even the one is Alan’s album - https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=62188 . Both badges are from the same die.
Thanks for your input Luke, I was unaware the burr on the plume, that is certainly a valuable piece of information.
As a relative newbie having being stung with a few howlers, I tend to err on the side of caution.

best regards, David
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 13-02-21, 10:04 AM
Sapper795 Sapper795 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 221
Default

Luke. Thanks for pointing this out, little bits of info like this are very useful.
Regards
Chris.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 16-02-21, 08:12 AM
Frank Kelley's Avatar
Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 7,278
Default

I think that the lack of bids reflects upon the lack of knowledge as far a potential buyers are concerned and to a degree upon the seller and all the rubbish being offered, in that a buyer has to wade through it to find the odd original badge.
I would not give up looking for an example if I were you, they are fairly common badges, it is a pity you thought that example was a fake, ten quid was certainly a good buy for someone.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil2M View Post
Looks like one of the few fake types to me. I've given up trying to find a genuine one. I think the lack of bids reflects other people's opinions of it too.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 16-02-21, 10:14 AM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,783
Default

To throw a spanner in the works I would not want the particular badge under discussion in my collection. As the Leinster Regiment was disbanded in 1922 there should be no need to manufacture Leinster Regiment badges after that date.

Therefore, I would expect any Leinster Regiment cap badge to have the characteristics of badges using the construction methods of the time. We are all aware that brazing methods used at the time had the capacity for the two pieces being brazed to slip out of position due to the heat and gases created in the process. Hence the use of sweat holes to allow the gases to escape.

My understanding is that later brazing techniques did away with the need for sweat holes and the extra manufacturing costs involved. We have all seen cap badges whose design did not change between 1902 and 1952 with both sweat holes and without sweat holes, and my contention is that those with sweat holes are the earlier badges.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Leinster 003.jpg (92.7 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg Leinster 005.jpg (93.2 KB, 34 views)

Last edited by High Wood; 16-02-21 at 10:47 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 16-02-21, 11:27 AM
dubaiguy's Avatar
dubaiguy dubaiguy is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by High Wood View Post
To throw a spanner in the works I would not want the particular badge under discussion in my collection. As the Leinster Regiment was disbanded in 1922 there should be no need to manufacture Leinster Regiment badges after that date.

Therefore, I would expect any Leinster Regiment cap badge to have the characteristics of badges using the construction methods of the time. We are all aware that brazing methods used at the time had the capacity for the two pieces being brazed to slip out of position due to the heat and gases created in the process. Hence the use of sweat holes to allow the gases to escape.

My understanding is that later brazing techniques did away with the need for sweat holes and the extra manufacturing costs involved. We have all seen cap badges whose design did not change between 1902 and 1952 with both sweat holes and without sweat holes, and my contention is that those with sweat holes are the earlier badges.
Hi
Agreed if you compare to a badge using the Leinster die as you illustrate, but that shown is a WWI economy measure where the top half of a Welsh Regiment badge has had a purpose made all brass Leinster scroll tacked to the bottom. Perhaps then the comparison should be made with a Welsh Regiment badge which usually has a single sweat hole behind the coronet. However, again as this is a WWI economy measure, the fact that there isn't one doesn't raise too many concerns in my mind.
Debatable?
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 16-02-21, 12:32 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,783
Default

Mark,

I am happy to debate, as it is what makes this forum so interesting.

However, I am slightly confused by your mention of a 1916 Economy Issue badge, as I was referring to the badge mention in Alan's original post.

I am also unsure as to why a badge manufacturer who had previously manufactured Leinster Regiment cap badge would resort to using a Welsh Regiment cap badge as the basis for making a Leinster Regiment E.I. badge.

Simon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (1).jpg (81.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg s-l1600 (2).jpg (88.3 KB, 23 views)
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 16-02-21, 01:12 PM
High Wood's Avatar
High Wood High Wood is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,783
Default

This is the Leinster Regiment Economy Issue cap badge.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=88236

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=128984

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=128983
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:15 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.