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  #1  
Old 25-09-08, 05:27 PM
ukbrits ukbrits is offline
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Default Staybrite Caernarvon & Denbighshire badges

Hi Guys,
Here's one for the staybrite collectors in the forum. I have 2 Anodised aluminium badges to the said Regt both are different! As can hopefully be seen in the piccys, picture 1 & 2 is a staybrite badge made by J.R Gaunt London it is a similar pattern to Gaylor's plate 33D. I believe this to be the genuine item. Pictures 3 & 4 are a different style of badge were the "Ich Dien" scrolls appear well detatched from the the bottom title scroll.As one forum member said on another thread it looks like a Wiltshire Yeo badge with a scroll added on underneath.My Personal feeling is that the badge depicted in pics 3 & 4 is a reject a/a badge for the C & D Yeo - the gold colour is poor and also overlaps on to the plumes.It also has a blank slider which suggests to me it was likely to have been never issued. I prefer to look at this item as a reject rather than an all too readily used term "fake anodised".
I would like to think when Firmin took over Gaunt in Birmingham all previously rejected badges in the store rooms would have been sold off , hence all the mistakes and odd variations that turn up.
I think any currently produced "fake anodised" are so poorly made they wouldn't fool even a novice collector.
Do any other members in the forum have any other C & D Yeo staybrites similar to the ones shown or any opinions on authenticity of their badges.
Regards.
Colin
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  #2  
Old 25-09-08, 06:02 PM
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Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
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Cant comment on the individual badges, but the only Caernarvonshire and Denbighshire Yeomanry badge I ever owned was well and truly scratched as one might expect from an old used anodised badge.

The point of my post is that if you look at Edwards " Regimental Badges", first edition,of which I have a copy of the 1972 reprint, the badge is shown as having "C &D Yeo" on the scroll and not the full title ( see picture ) I wonder if Edwards.like a lot of other respected authors was wrong in his line drawn illustration ?

P.B.
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File Type: jpg DSCF8772.jpg (28.2 KB, 52 views)
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  #3  
Old 26-09-08, 09:13 AM
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Colin,
I have an example matching yours as shown in 3&4.
Mine is pristine and I have always been suspicious of it. I know that other Welsh collectors have the C&D examples with the Gaunt mark on the slider and believe this to be the genuine one.
With regard to Edwards, his drawn images leave a lot to be desired and he has used a lot of abbreviations where none actually existed.
Cofion,
Kevin

Last edited by 41st; 26-09-08 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Typo
  #4  
Old 26-09-08, 10:05 AM
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hi Guys,believe it or not i raised this point with hagwalther in the last 7 days.Ive had limited internet access at the moment so i am a bit behind.I was waiting for a picture of the rear of the 1 badge before i passed comment.My initial thought was that 1 was a recent fake,until i saw the back of both badges.The points raised in the thread are the same as i mentioned.The unit existed for 6 years or so,i wouldnt have thought that the badge was mass produced.Its quiet possible that 1 is a reject batch.
  #5  
Old 26-09-08, 11:25 AM
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The Gaunt looks good to me (remember I'm no expert here just trying to record it all and make some sense of it all).

Now with the second. Has the scroll part been added to the badge?

The blank slider looks like a few I have seen lately too.

With regard to the scroll part - this looks like a separate piece added via pins to a scroll 'backing plate'. Is this correct and if so, could the same badge be reused for other units but with a different scroll?

Coming back to sliders. I am of the opinion that they were added BEFORE attachement to the badge body as it would be easier to do this rather than after - Am I right here?

Regards

Chris
  #6  
Old 04-06-21, 10:42 AM
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Having now seen one of the blank slidered cap badges and checked it against other maker's slider types, including the ones faked in the 1970s, it is my opinion that it is not a Gaunt badge (ruling out it coming from the same source as the unmarked fakes made by Gaunt) but a Marples & Beasley badge.

The slider is identical to the ultra scarce Lancashire Fusilier cap badge and other marked M&B 1950's-60's badge.

Whilsts the style of the POW feathers is different there are other example of 2 makers using different PofW feather designs for the same unit such as the 10th Hussars.
  #7  
Old 04-06-21, 04:50 PM
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Are the blank sliders of recent manufacture, produced under MOD licence for the collectors' market? My regiment was amalgamated in 1993 but spanking new, blank slidered badges are appearing regularly. (The only manufacturers were Gaunt and Firmin, the latter being much harder to find).
  #8  
Old 04-06-21, 04:57 PM
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Some of the earliest a/a were unmarked. However a few years ago the MOD specified that all modern badges are to be unmarked: so all issued ones are now made with unmarked sliders.
  #9  
Old 04-06-21, 05:29 PM
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.... just an FYI

https://www.paoyeomanry.org.uk/DHYCapBadge.htm
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  #10  
Old 04-06-21, 09:34 PM
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Hi Alan,
I believe the scarce Lancashire Fusiliers badge was generally maker marked H.W Timings.
Marples & Beasleys badges sliders are generally a bit wider than Timings sliders and most other maker marked a/a items.
Best regards
Colin
  #11  
Old 05-06-21, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
Some of the earliest a/a were unmarked. However a few years ago the MOD specified that all modern badges are to be unmarked: so all issued ones are now made with unmarked sliders.
I can certainly see that "test" badges be made sterile, but once approved why would badges for service use not be named by the manufacturer? Every single item in service is marked with the makers mark. Seems odd.

Clay
  #12  
Old 05-06-21, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flatdog View Post
I can certainly see that "test" badges be made sterile, but once approved why would badges for service use not be named by the manufacturer? Every single item in service is marked with the makers mark. Seems odd.

Clay
The MOD class it as advertising, Firmins had to alter the printing on their plastic packets. No company names on there either.
  #13  
Old 05-06-21, 11:38 AM
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Colin,

I have the two you mention and I have always viewed the blank slidered example with suspicion. The marked Gaunt example I have, has clear signs of wear.

As also discussed above the generic 'plumes' are used on several anodised cap badges (with maker die variations) having the relevant scrolls added - with slight variations on the actual specific design:-

Caernarvon & Denbigh Yeo
Cheshire Yeo
Flint & Denbigh Yeo
Pembroke Yeo
Welsh Regt
10 Hussars

The question is, did this practise occur? I.e. use the same plume and add a scroll - because most are NOT added via a backing plate but are integral to the piece. I.e. not a two part badge.

I also have - what at first appears to be a Wilts Yeo cap badge, but has 2 small lug/pins at the bottom of the scroll each side on the rear- so clearly had a scroll attached at some point. However which regiment?- this is made more curious as the maker is R A HUGHES - a very early anodised maker. My guess is the larger Pembroke Yeo ( which I don't have).

Incidentally my anodised Lancs Fusiliers is unmarked but fairly certain it's a Timings made badge.

If I recall all badges post 2012 'SHOULD' be unmarked by the maker and some time shortly after the packaging too - hence the obviously FIRMIN bags with no maker name.

With regards to the C&D Yeomanry cap badge, AZAM'S made an anodised copy. I attach the abomination for your interest.

Regards all

Bess
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Last edited by bess55; 06-06-21 at 01:19 PM.
  #14  
Old 05-06-21, 01:17 PM
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Here is an extract from the relevant MOD contract specifications document. While it is clear that badges and packaging should not show makers marks or details, no reason is given. The change was effective from 2012 but of course some marked badges and packaging remained in the system for a few more years.

Tim
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File Type: jpg 3D09AA00-CED2-4BA7-830F-4E4093EDC4C3.jpg (24.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg C3F51C5A-1BC9-4FCA-B40D-E79130F40426.jpg (34.9 KB, 11 views)
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  #15  
Old 05-06-21, 03:46 PM
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...if anyone is interested :-

eBay item number: 254554785822

The Flintshire, and Denbighshire Yeomanry, RA, TA. (1967-71) A/A Cap & Collars
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