Fantasy badge 72nd Battalion... - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Bill A · #1 10-10-11, 10:41 AM

These fantasy badges are showing up more frequently, and collectors should be aware of the large number of brass repro Canadian badges, both CEF and king's crown. (Fantasy badges in that the original was never made in brass.) It will not be long before someone lists these as a "previously unknown brass economy issue badge". Unfortunately, this has already happened with the Essex Regiment Tank.
There are also brass repro's of badges that were originally made in brass. The quality of these strikings is somewhat wanting, but will be troubling for inexperienced collectors. These are showing up in Canadian dealers' offerings.
There are also attempts to pass off some restrikes as officer's badges. The "sterling silver" PPCLI badge is an example of a fantasy hallmarked badge, as is the CMGC badge. Note the use of a Gaunt plate in combination with the "silver" mark.
Some characteristics to note:
1. Overall poor quality striking, lack of clean crisp detail
2. Wrong material as compared to known examples of the badge
3. Wrong type of fastener. Eg, slider instead of lugs, or the wrong type of lugs.
4. Fantasy / unofficial markings / hallmarks.
Hopefully other members can add to the list. Below are some examples of the badge. (Please note, the dealers are not focus of the discussion. It is the badges that need to be identified and described. Vendors come and go, and other vendors will certainly offer these. Knowing what is a good badge versus a bad one is the focus of this thread.)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAP-BADGE-...item3a6aef1779

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAP-BADGE-...item45fd76fe76

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-BLACK-...item19c8eb4b2e

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-CANADI...item19c891bf9e

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WW1-MACHIN...item483ff8e815

whizzbang · #2 10-10-11, 03:12 PM

Hi Bill,

There is another fantasy 72nd badge which is a maple leaf version that looks exactly like the collar, only larger. Having heard about this one verbally from collectors over the years I finally found an article by Hugh King in "The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society" published in 1994 that describes the badge. This badge appears in Babin and the article notes this as one of the few errors in the book.

In the same article he also describes the CMGC badge you have linked to (not in silver but the one commonly seen in browning brass, most often with the same fake Gaunt tablet) again, as a "spurious" CEF badge.

Unfortunately, I have seen the 72nd maple leaf pattern sell for a lot of money on several occasions, most recently on an ebay auction by a reputable dealer!

Cheers, Ian.

Bill A · #3 10-10-11, 08:10 PM

Hi Ian, Yes that is the troubling part. With reputable dealers being "tricked" it is going to be harder and harder to get the message across that these are repro's / fakes. The same with that bogus 51st Soo Rifles with the slider. Bad badge, often seen being sold by good dealers.

8Hussar · #4 13-10-11, 03:05 PM

You will be happy to know that the "reputable dealer" in question is refunding the buyer's money on that badge as it was news to him that it was bogus. The dealer in question has had an identical badge in his collection for well over 20 years and just goes to show that no one knows everything and that we are never too old to learn.

whizzbang · #5 14-10-11, 12:05 AM

Hi Gary,

That's good news about the refund and it's great that there are good dealers out there who are willing to correct mistakes. Those dealers are like gold - I've come across so many that take a complaint like a personal insult and make returning a badge a real misery!

The fact that this particular badge is in a popular reference book is unfortunate and highlights the importance and value of forums like this one. I've learned more than I ever could have imagined here!

Cheers, Ian.

Bill A · #6 14-10-11, 01:15 AM

A couple more that need to be flagged.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAP-BADGE-...item45fdc24604

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAP-BADGE-...item3a6b70b8ff

Bill A · #7 22-10-11, 12:34 PM

I believe this is a fantasy Rocky Mountain Rangers cap. http://www.ebay.com/itm/280758133614...84.m1438.l2649
Problems with this badge?
1. Collar badge design being offered as a cap.
2. Slider fastener. (Seldom seen on Canadian badges before 1950's. Some exceptions.)
3. Indeterminate time period. Is this a pre 1914 badge? 1920-1952 kc? Queen's crown? (Additional information, meant to add this earlier.) The pre-14 cap badge was required to have "102" somewhere in the design. Without the numerals, the badge must be post 1920. However, no authorized badge of that pattern is listed in Mazeas. Of note, the pre-14 Mazeas book shows 1899 pattern collars, which appear to be the basis for this "fantasy" cap badge.
4. Cast not die struck.

Phillip Herring · #8 22-10-11, 02:11 PM

Regarding the slidered Rocky Mountain Rangers badge:
I had a similar one about twenty years ago. I had Bill Elms look at it and he said it was a dud.
It looks like the main base of a Rocky Mountain Rangers officer's collar badge.
Like the Soo Rifles badge, it is slidered and there are lots of them coming out of the UK.

Phil

whizzbang · #9 22-10-11, 09:10 PM

Bloody annoying - that Rocky Mountain badge seller STILL has h***h(0) bidding up his items in small increments and never winning anything. After numerous complaints by members of this forum e-bay does nothing.

Bill A · #10 23-10-11, 11:50 AM

These badges being offered on ebay should be treated with caution. These are all in brass. CEF: 43rd Bn, 44th Bn, 61st Bn, 119th Bn, 125th Bn, 177th Bn, 188th Bn, 193rd Bn, 213th Bn, and 226th Bn. These all seem to be on a soft brass, and they have the appearance of wear. And a couple more king's crown, Governor General's Horse Guards and Cape Breton Highlanders. The GGHG is a dead giveaway. It is in brass, but as a cavalry regiment, all other ranks badges were in white metal. The Cape Breton is also in brass, no overlay...

Bill A · #11 24-10-11, 11:16 AM

Three more that have appeared. CEF, 144 Bn, Canadian Parachute Corps (of course, but this one appears to be from the same "maker" as the other bright brass copies). And last, for today, a cast RCMP kings crown, not from the same source, and has a darkened finish.

shootemup · #12 26-10-11, 05:35 PM

Many of the regiments with a large contingent of cadet corps are the source of the "bogus" badges. To keep costs down, for the last 30+ years, corps have been having reproductions made locally, or more recently, in the Indian subcontinent. These badges serve the corps better, as DND does not pay for regimental accoutrements for cadets, and 12-18 yr olds tend to lose at least 2 or 3 over their cadet "careers".

The badges are easily identified by the slider, lack of fine detail, casting imperfections, and inconsistency in the "brass" ranging from bright gold colour to dull brown. Generally they do not have a makers mark, unless the original sample was marked "Scully" or "Gaunt" but one will notice the usual imperfections in the mark as well. If you have a badge in question, check to see if there are cadet corps affiliated with that regiment...if so, it is very possibly a cadet corp badge.

Bill A · #13 26-10-11, 05:45 PM

Hi Hans, These badges listed above are being marketed out of the UK, and were not from cadets. They are not made for any other purpose than to deceive and defraud. Most of them have no current equivalent in the Canadian Forces, as can be seen for the CEF copies. As well, the kc badges would not likely be worn by the cadet corps, as they are nearly 60 years out of date.
The cadet corps "copies" can be argued to be an issue badge, as they were used as insignia. It would be useful to have a list of badges made and issued by cadet corps.