Observer Corps

[rubicon]

Hello Wooffy,

As an expert in the ROC, would you like explain us the system of rank and qualification used in the corps during WWII? Does it a book dedicated to ROC badges and its history? Cheers. J-F

[Wooffy]

Hi Rubicon - thanks for your kind words, but I certainly wouldn't call myself an expert of all things ROC, I have some knowledge... and a reasonable collection (with plenty of gaps too)

Initially observers were identified by an adapted special constables arm band and a lapel badge. However, during the war; there were two NCO positions "Head Observer" and "Duty Controller", both positions were identified by a woven name tape which was worn above the left breast pocket. Shortly after the change of the corps title to include the word "Royal", the NCO ranks and insignia changed. "Leading Observer" was a rank equivalent to a Corporal in the army, and the insignia was a 2 bar badge surrounded by a laurel leaf garland, and a "Chief Observer" (equivalent to an army sergeant), and they wore a three bar badge surrounded by a laurel leaf. Initially these badges were printed in white / light blue (war time issue only), later they were woven in light blue on a blue/grey back ground and following 1972 they were woven in light blue on a dark blue background. (Also following 1972 woven epaulette slides could be worn if appropriate).

Officers wore RAF uniform which had been altered, RAF buttons were replaced with Brass Observer Corps ones and an Officer's rank was identified by 15mm high dark blue/black braid cuff rings. The rank could also be shown by appropriate epaulette slides. On the lapel, officers wore two brass ROC badges. (These are the smaller of the two varieties to be found, the larger ones are for the shoulders of over coat).

I could go on and on to be honest....

As for collecting guides, there isn’t anything specific, but I would suggest looking at: "Forewarned is Forearmed" (A history of the ROC up to 1948) By TE Winslow, "Attack Warning Red" (A history of the ROC - revised Ed. 1992) By Derek Wood, "The Plane Spotters" (A medallic history of the ROC and it has an excellent section on 'seaborne' observers) and "Badges and Uniforms of the RAF" (This has one chapter on ROC items, but it has many omissions) By M. Hobart

As for the future.... it might be an idea for a project

[rubicon]

Thank you Wooffy, very useful information. Do you know if ROC Seaborne Observers had been KIA during Neptune phase? Cheers. J-F

[Wooffy]

Information extrapolated from the sources mentioned previously

There were 796 members of the observer corps who were temporarily enrolled in the Royal Navy with the rank of Petty Officer (Aircraft Identifier) and took part in Operation Neptune. Their service numbers fall within the range: P/JS 2250 – 3045. For their service, they were all entitled to receive the France & Germany Star and the 1939-45 War Medal

Ten Seaborne Observers were selected to receive a Mention In Dispatches (MID) and these were confirmed in the London Gazette of the 10th October 1944 with the following citation: “These awards are made as a token of the good work of those members of the Royal Observer Corps who temporarily joined the Royal Navy for this service”. There names are recorded thus:

BODILL, Thomas Henry; BOURNE, George Alfred Donovan; DEARDEN, Anthony William Priestley; HUGHES, John; JAMES, Derek Norman; JONES, Edward; LLEWELLYN, Albert Edward; McALLEN, George; REYNOLDS, John Weston; WITHAM, Joseph Douglas.

NOTE: As a consequence of being in receipt of a MID these Seabornes also received the 1939 – 45 Star.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

P/JS2639 John B B BANCROFT (KIA 24 June 1944) and P/JS2903 William J SALTER (KIA 2 July 1944) are cited as being the only two fatalities the Royal Observer Corps suffered during Operation Neptune.

BANCROFT was killed on the 24th June 44 when an acoustic mine exploded under No 4 & 5 holds of the MV Derry Cunihy. Chief Observer BANCROFT was on duty near the Bofors Gun in the stern of the vessel when the explosion occurred, he was not seen alive again. His body was recovered the following day and subsequently he was buried at sea.

SALTER was killed on the 2nd July 44 when the SS Empire Broadsword was also sunk by two acoustic mines. Tony COURT who was serving on the SS Empire Battleaxe which was alongside the Broadsword at the time reports the incident thus; “two mines chained together floated up either side of her stern and exploded, her aft magazine blew up, peppering her side with holes, the masts hipped apart, a life boat broke in half and one of her landing craft was left hanging from one davit. All but six of the ship’s company were rescued. Bill SALTER from Exeter Group was one of those killed”.

In all 22 Seabornes survived their ships being sunk.

Regards,

[rubicon]

Originally Posted by Wooffy

Information extrapolated from the sources mentioned previously

There were 796 members of the observer corps who were temporarily enrolled in the Royal Navy with the rank of Petty Officer (Aircraft Identifier) and took part in Operation Neptune. Their service numbers fall within the range: P/JS 2250 – 3045. For their service, they were all entitled to receive the France & Germany Star and the 1939-45 War Medal

Ten Seaborne Observers were selected to receive a Mention In Dispatches (MID) and these were confirmed in the London Gazette of the 10th October 1944 with the following citation: “These awards are made as a token of the good work of those members of the Royal Observer Corps who temporarily joined the Royal Navy for this service”. There names are recorded thus:

BODILL, Thomas Henry; BOURNE, George Alfred Donovan; DEARDEN, Anthony William Priestley; HUGHES, John; JAMES, Derek Norman; JONES, Edward; LLEWELLYN, Albert Edward; McALLEN, George; REYNOLDS, John Weston; WITHAM, Joseph Douglas.

NOTE: As a consequence of being in receipt of a MID these Seabornes also received the 1939 – 45 Star.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

P/JS2639 John B B BANCROFT (KIA 24 June 1944) and P/JS2903 William J SALTER (KIA 2 July 1944) are cited as being the only two fatalities the Royal Observer Corps suffered during Operation Neptune.

BANCROFT was killed on the 24th June 44 when an acoustic mine exploded under No 4 & 5 holds of the MV Derry Cunihy. Chief Observer BANCROFT was on duty near the Bofors Gun in the stern of the vessel when the explosion occurred, he was not seen alive again. His body was recovered the following day and subsequently he was buried at sea.

SALTER was killed on the 2nd July 44 when the SS Empire Broadsword was also sunk by two acoustic mines. Tony COURT who was serving on the SS Empire Battleaxe which was alongside the Broadsword at the time reports the incident thus; “two mines chained together floated up either side of her stern and exploded, her aft magazine blew up, peppering her side with holes, the masts hipped apart, a life boat broke in half and one of her landing craft was left hanging from one davit. All but six of the ship’s company were rescued. Bill SALTER from Exeter Group was one of those killed”.

In all 22 Seabornes survived their ships being sunk.

Regards,

Hello Wooffy,
Thanks a lot for your very accurate reply, I have learnt a lot about the ROC involved in operation Neptune . A friend of me has already dived on the SS Empire Broadsword and told me yesterday evening it is still a very interesting wreck to visit today. There is a website about SS Empire Broadsword :

http://grieme.org/empire.html

It is in French but you'll seen excellent pictures of the wreck and memorabilia.
Let me know if you need held to understand the French text .

By the way, on the picture of the ROC observer you put on the website, it seems the observer wore a embroidered "RN" armlet, can you confirm this with the original picture? What do you think about the printed RN armlet with elastics which are often met on the market? For me they look to be post WWII... Cheers. J-F

[Wooffy]

Hi J-F

Thanks for the link, really interesting to see the actual wreck, its more intact that i thought it would be, and the quality of

With regard to the arm band, my first impressions of the RN armband were the same as yours. From the research that i have carried out they were definately printed red on blue during WWII and not embroidered, although some private issues may have been made by a few observers and worn - like the seaborne flashes - although there are many fakes of these so be careful. This type of printed band was used (and produced) after the war also. As for the validity of the ones found on that ever popular global auction site... hum - they are definately in keeping, and so far, i have never founded a dated arm band, so can only assume that they are genuine (unless obviously a copy). It also appears that they were issued with different coloured elastic straps (white and black) but this appears to have no significance in dating them as far as i can assertain. Observers removed these and they were sewn directly onto the uniform, so unless you find a uniform with one insitu you could never be 100% sure, but i think they're good....

Hope that rambling helps!

Regards

[Wooffy]

sorry - didnt finish my first sentence.... meant to say the quality of the artifacts recovered is really good - some nice images.

[Observer]

There is a privately published booklet by a chap called Basil Rookley who clearly describes and illustrates the vast majority of badges and insignia used by the (Royal) Observer Corps including the few items of Special Constabulary insignia used in the early days of the Corps.

Incidentally I do need a 'Head Observer' title for my own collection.

Observer

[Wooffy]

Me too! (and a "duty controller" one also )

[rubicon]

Thanks a lot Woofy for your precious remarkes and information.
All the best.
J-F

[Observer]

Heres a piccy of a Duty Controller Title, these were used after the armbands were discontinued on the introduction of uniform. The armbands bore the wording Duty Controller and the Group ie 20Group.

Observer

[Wooffy]

Wow - that's the first one I have seen as a "real badge" and not on a photograph of someone in uniform! If you ever find a spare and are looking for someway of disposing of it.....

[SAS1]

And a Head Observer title, although this one is incorrectly worn on a BD with sleeve rank badges (which actually replaced the titles).

If anyone has spares of either i'd be interested. Observer, can I ask the name of the Basil Rookley book?

Thanks

[SAS1]

...and the quite scarce Observer Corps officers peaked cap badge...

[sailorbear]

Originally Posted by Jibba Jabba

Correct Kiwi. I knew a chap who was one and despite his 42 years service he was not allowed to join his local branch of the Legion. Apparently the corps hadnt done enough during the war.

Hmmm, I had a similar experience when a few years ago I and a group of fellow Royal Fleet Auxiliary sailors were initially denied entry to the Falmouth Royal British Legion Branch (and on Merchant Navy day too!) because we were not "real" servicemen depite the fact that we had amongst our number RFA veterans of the Falklands conflict, operations in Sierra Leone, the Persian gulf, the Balkans, Iraq, counter piracy operations off West Africa and anti smuggling ops in the Caribbean!

Anyway back to badges! can anyone explain the ROC cap badges below and when they were worn and by who?

Regards Tony