Tyneside Scottish opinions please.

[buckiebeetle]

This is the 4 variations I have, cheers, John.

[Silver Tourist]

Good evening.
And for those of you not already watching this item, see ebay Item number: 251159709277.

KK2361. Sealed 19 April 1940. "Formed in 1939 as 12th (Tyneside Scottish) Bn, The Durham Light Infantry, it was transferred later that year as 1st Bn, The Tyneside Scottish, The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment)."

Well, that`s the entry in K&K. Also available in hallmarked silver of course.

But then nobody ever believes anything appearing in a book, do they?

Enjoy.

ST

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

1947-55. 670th Light Anti Aircraft Regiment R.A. (Tyneside Scottish) (TA)

1955-56 became S (Tyneside Scottish) Battery of 439th LAA Regiment RA. (TA)

1956-67 Q (Tyneside Scottish) Battery R.A. of 439th (Tyne) L.A.A. Regiment R.A (TA)

In 1967, 439th , 274th, 324th (excuse designations) Regiments RA merged to form 101st (Northumbrian) Field Regiment R.A (V) The Tyneside Scottish disappeared.

However you mustn't forget that in 1967 until April 1969, you had 'D'(Tyneside Scottish)Company, 4/5/6th Bn, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers(T.A.), who continued with T.S. traditions as part of TAVR III.

The badge itself, as you point out, has sadly been "done to death", fortunately all of mine were obtained long before repro set-in. One of the better genuine broached ones coming out of a dustbin in Seaham Harbour.

[Rockape]

Here is a recent acquisition. 2nd pattern.

Gaz

[Rockape]

A close-up of the detail for pattern #1

[LONGSHANKS]

Hi Gaz, just wanted to thank you for posting the rear pic with pin attachment. I could never work out what the deformation and extra solder was on mine, now I know...I always thought they were all lug attached.

Thanks

Simon.

[tynesideirish]

Just to add images to this thread, some images of the badge being worn. The photos are from my files and are not physically in my collection.

[Peter Brydon]

Great photos, I am always surprised when serious collectors of insignia dont also collect pictures of badges being worn.

P.B.

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 8thfoot

Great photos, I am always surprised when serious collectors of insignia dont also collect pictures of badges being worn.

P.B.

Dead right Peter, a lot can be learned from studying postcards and photos.

[Graham Stewart]

SCAN0002.jpg 1st T.S..jpg

TS BADGE.jpg

Two photo's from my files showing the first pattern being worn & a badge from my collection still with it's original tartan backing, which originally belonged to 22/781 Piper Edward Roland Grieves, who died of wounds 6th July 1916 aged 18yrs.

[mtrpltpara]

Simon, i understand that the original pattern badges were lugged on issue and pin fastenings were added later after removing the loops.
It would seem from ST`s post that most badges shown are incorrect as they have the voiding around the thistles. I have a couple, one in white metal non voided with a pin, and one in H/M silver which does have the voiding, not sure if ST`s comments apply also to the silver badges re. voiding?
Regards,
Bill.

Originally Posted by LONGSHANKS

Hi Gaz, just wanted to thank you for posting the rear pic with pin attachment. I could never work out what the deformation and extra solder was on mine, now I know...I always thought they were all lug attached.

Thanks

Simon.

[TRT]

If Grahams badge above is original with provinance from a veteren then the badges were voided? Unless I am wrong where I assume we refer to voiding?

TRT

[LONGSHANKS]

Originally Posted by mtrpltpara

Simon, i understand that the original pattern badges were lugged on issue and pin fastenings were added later after removing the loops.
It would seem from ST`s post that most badges shown are incorrect as they have the voiding around the thistles. I have a couple, one in white metal non voided with a pin, and one in H/M silver which does have the voiding, not sure if ST`s comments apply also to the silver badges re. voiding?
Regards,
Bill.

Are you referring to the first or second pattern Bill.

Simon.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

Well I'm flabbergasted! Call Dr.Who! The Sealed card dated 1940 shown 2 posts previous was for a badge worn by a RA Regiment 7 years before it came into being. A mistake or fake?
Fact: In 1940 the TS were part of The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment).
Fact: 670th Light Anti Aircraft Regiment R.A. (Tyneside Scottish) (TA) was reconstituted on 01 Jan 1947.

Hi Guys,

I picked this actual (yes, actual) card up last week in Australia. It certainly looks the real deal and I have been looking at quite a few pattern cards over the last few years. I have also taken a hard look at it in relation to it being a forgery but it shows all the signs of being a good piece with physical attributes (that I am not going to go into here) as being (for example) consistent with the its storage over a certain period of time using the materials available of the era.

Note that the card is for:

670th LAA Regt (RA)
(Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment)

so it seems that the Tyneside Scottish are retaining their link to the Black Watch.

On investigating pattern cards and the procedure for introduction of an A/A badge (note I know nothing at all about non A/A items so may possibly come unstuck here) the procedure for creating pattern cards is:

When the badge die has been hardened, after the design being accepted by Colonel of Regiment and other interested parties, a certain number of prototype badges are made from the newly hardened dies.

If these pass muster then this initial batch is split up into a Master Pattern group and a Standard (or Working pattern group as per this example - later changed to Standard) Pattern group. Those badge that are not used for pattern sealing are probably discarded or at least leave the official procedure of introducing a new badge.

A pattern number is allocated from the pattern registry to the badge and it is sealed for the unit in question by attaching the badge to the card using tape and wax. Note that a pin has also been sealed with this badge.

Now, when this badge was sealed on the 19th April 1940 you can bet the farm that it was for the:

670th LAA Regt (RA)
(Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment)

Whether this unit was actual physically formed in April of 1940 is a totally different thing though and this may not have occurred until 1947 as previously noted. However, for all intends and purposes, I would suggest that the pattern card shown here in this thread is for the unit that it has been written up for and that the badge was certainly sealed for the 670th LAA Regt (RA), (Tyneside Scottish (B.W) Highland Regiment) on the 19th April 1940.

A check of the List of Changes from 1940 may or may not show the introduction of this badge and its inclusion, or otherwise, may help explain what actually happened to the 670th LAA Regt (RA) during 1940.

Regards

Chris

[tynesideirish]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

A check of the List of Changes from 1940 may or may not show the introduction of this badge and its inclusion, or otherwise, may help explain what actually happened to the 670th LAA Regt (RA) during 1940.Chris

Chris, In 1940 There was no such beast as the 670th LAA Regt (RA) BW or TS affiliated or not. However thanks for the update. If genuine, I really don't mind being proven wrong. (I'm married, I'm used to it! )

It still seems incredible that in the midst of a world war that the British are actually close to loosing at that point, they can not only discuss possible or future changes to unit roll & manning let alone seal the insignia for it. Learn something new every day.

On a like but different note I bought this off Ebay.
Tyneside Scottish Desk Cigarette box. Auction said Circa 1915 it is Silver. 4 1/2 x 4 1/2 inches. One off? No hallmarks and is lovely regardless of the date of manufacture.