TF/TA Badges worn after 1916??

[Chrisr]

Hi All,

I was hoping members might be able to help to identify which TF/TA battalions continued to wear their own distinctive badges after many of them were permitted to wear the regular pattern badge of their respective regiments around 1916, and when they went out of use.

For example, I understand the 4th and 5th Battalions and the 4th/5th Battalion of the Royal Scots continued to wear their distinctive badge but I am not sure when they gave up their badge. Similarly the London Regiment battalions continued to wear their own badges, but again I don't know ones retained their own distinctive badge when converted to RE etc.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers
Chris

[Peter Brydon]

As far as the Kings Liverpool Regiment T.F battalions are concerned they continued to wear their distinctive badges, the 9th battalion, despite what a number of books say were already wearing the bi metal badge as worn by the regular battalions.

P.B.

[Alan O]

In theory only those blank scroll badges would have been removed by the 1916 decision.

Separate to the honour scrolls direction, the WD did not supply all of the TF variations so you would need to find which sealed patterns were authorised and produced. Some TF Bn badges, for example the Blackened Glosters were not supplied, whilst the w/m one was. Likewise there was an official TF Middlesex badge with the SAfrican honour but the 10th Bn with their blank scroll were not catered for after 1915.

Although not strictly TF in the case of Pals' badges I understand that only the 17-20th Kings Bn badge was officially supplied. All of the other Bns bought their badges in 1915 and when the Army took over supply to the Pals Bns, any new recruits would have been equipped by the Army with standard cap badges.

In the case of the Devons I don't think that either bespoke wm or BB badges were catered for at all.

I believe that the Londons retained all of their own badges until post war.

The 25th converted to Signals in 1921 and lost their badge. The 4th changed from RF to RA.

The 14th and 16th merged post war with a new badge design. I read the regtl history and comments suggested that switch over was sudden in 1921 and bothl old badges were removed immediately. The 7th and 8th Bns also merged but continued to wear the 7th cap badge.

The remainder seem to have retained their own badge and it was not until 1937 changes that they converted to RA and RE and even then it took some years for those badges to be adopted.

The 10th Hackney converted to Berkshires in 1937 and wore the Berkshire dragon there after. The London Scottish however retained their own badge even though they were now affiliated to the Gordon Highlanders.

You then get to the tricky issue of what was worn compared to what was supposed to be worn!

[lettman]

In the case of the London Rifle Bde (old 5th London), even though there was a post-WW1 badge issued, photographs show the 8th Rifle Bde in WW2 (which the 2nd LRB became, and which served as the motor bn to the 29th Armd Bde, 11th Armd Div) wearing the straightforward Rifle Bde badge of that era.

[Keith Blakeman]

6th East Surrey stopped wearing their distinctive Maltese Cross badges (based upon their earlier 3rd VB days) and wore a blackened g/m regulars badge. The cynic in me says because there was a surplus of economy badges rather than pay for a new run of the original.

[Alan O]

I do not think that the Maltese Cross design was not one of those badges authorised for issue by the WD so there manufacture would have ceased in 1915. If anyone does now of a selaed pattern to prove otherwise then I would be grateful.

[chief_chum]

Plenty of 'Old Sweats' in the 4th Suffolks were still wearing their original TF cap badges in 1921.

[Chrisr]

Many thanks to all who have replied. Your comments are much appreciated.

Is it worthwhile undertaking a forum project to determine when the various TF/TA badges stopped being worn?

Best wishes
Chris

[Alan O]

Chris

As a starter you would need to trawl through the ACD records to determine which badges were authorised for issue specifically to TF Bns in 1915. S/P dates would be from that date to formalise the 1908 TF supplied patterns. If there is no sealed pattern then production would have stopped in 1915 but wear might not have stopped for some years later until the 'old sweats' left unless the abdge was radically different such as the case of the 15/16th Londons.

Secondly you would then need to go through to 1938 and determine if any new ones were created or previous unofficial patterns formally authorised.

Then you would need to check for any AOs removing designs or superceding them with new/Regular badges.

Finally you would then have to confirm that was supposed to happen actually did! The post war TF reorganistions and amalgmations are often confusing and the 1937/8 reorganistions have proved difficult to nail down as well. The research effort for all of the TF would be significant and worthy of a book on its own.


Alan

[Chrisr]

Alan,

Many thanks for your most comprehensive reply.

It is obviously a much bigger and more complex task than I appreciated. The points you raise are well taken, and the research you have highlighted would certainly need to be done to make the project a worthwhile resource for badge collectors. I live in Australia, so unfortunately I cannot get easy access to the necessary records.

Thank you again for your help.

Best wishes
Chris

[Peter Brydon]

A few notes on post WW1 badges of the Kings Liverpool's Territorials :

5th Battalion continued to wear the all blackened brass badge the same design as the bi metal badge worn by the Regulars.

On the change of design of the regulars cap badge in 1926 ( Regimental magazine The Kingsman Vol.1 No.3 of December 1928 refers to the issue of new pattern cap and collar badges in 1928 ) the 5th Bn. adopted the new badge in blackened brass. There was also a blackened brass hybrid badge ( see picture )

In 1938 the 5th Kings ceased to be a Rifle Battalion and colours were presented to the battalion on 19th May 1938 and the battalion adopted the same badges as the regulars.

The 6th Bn. ( Liverpool Rifles ) continued wearing their blackened rose and bugle horn cap badge until becoming a A.A. searchlight battalion in 1936, firstly with the RE`s and later the Royal Artillery. They lost the Liverpool Rifles cap badge but adopted a cloth arm badge based on their old cap badge design to perpetuate their origins. The Liverpool Rifles cap badge was worn by Merchant Taylors School Crosby OTC

The 7th Battalion wore all white metal versions of the regulars badge ( with the change of design in the 1920`s ) until transferring to the Royal Tank Regiment in 1938 when they ceased wearing the Kings Regiment cap badge. An all white metal Kings cap badge was worn by Liverpool Institute OTC but I don't think there was any relationship between the school and the 7th Battalion.

The 8th ( Irish ) battalion wore their distinctive blackened brass cap badge which they had worn from 1908 up to 1922 when as a result of the "Geddes Axe" they were disbanded.

On being reformed in 1939, new designs of cap badge for both officers and other ranks of the new 8th (Irish ) Bn. were adopted, all other insignia being the same as worn by the Kings Regiment regular battalions.


The 9th Battalion had worn the bi metal cap badge of the regular battalions and were not re raised as infantry after being disbanded at the end the Great War.

The 10th (Scottish ) battalion continued to wear their glengarry badge until leaving the Kings and becoming part of the Corps of the Queens Own Cameron Highlanders on 10th August 1937 when a variation of the Camerons badge with additional title scrolls was adopted.

P.B.

E and O.E.

[Alan O]

May I propose that I add the details of use, where known, to my TF album (http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...mid=1002follow). I can update photos and re-order where required and members can add comments on each badge until we have consensus (well near consensus) which can then add the script.

I would also welcome sealed pattern details where known and other wearers of the badge (OTC/CCF/HG etc).

I have a few TF badges missing should members have a photo that they can contribute.

Scots TA/TF are here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...php?albumid=50

London regt are here: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...p?albumid=2083

Please add details with the comments button as appropriate.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

6th East Surrey stopped wearing their distinctive Maltese Cross badges (based upon their earlier 3rd VB days) and wore a blackened g/m regulars badge. The cynic in me says because there was a surplus of economy badges rather than pay for a new run of the original.

Keith

http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...7-64c01b564a30

the National Archives says that the 6th Bn was disbanded in 1920 and then re-raised:

'Following World War I, all Territorial and Service Battalions were disbanded and the 3rd and 4th Special Reserve Battalions were permanently disembodied. However, the Territorial Force was reestablished in 1920 along pre-war lines, and was retitled the Territorial Army in 1921: as a result, the 5th and 6th Battalions of the East Surreys were reformed, as were the 21st and 23rd (County of London) Battalions of the London Regiment (in 1922 renamed the 21st London Regiment (1st Surrey Rifles) and 23rd London Regiment. In 1935 the 21st was converted into an anti-aircraft searchlight unit in the Royal Engineers. In 1937, the 23rd became the 7th Battalion of the East Surrey Regiment and in 1938, was converted into the 42nd Battalion of the Royal Tank Corps (TA).'

[KLR]

Chris, I've finished and will submit the first part of the Badges of the 1st WW article - being the regular units - soon. I already have lots of notes (including much of the above) for Part 2 - which covers the TF etc , which is MUCH more complicated than the first part !!!
Julian


PS the 5th Bn KLR wore a WM badge between 1921 and 1927 (when they appear to have worn a hybrid badge which was only made obsolete in 1954)

[Chrisr]

Peter, Alan and Julian,

Many thanks for your most helpful replies. Perhaps this is the way to go , as Alan has suggested, with members contributing their expertise on the units they know.


Lovely collection of TA and TA badges Alan. I can add an album of those I have which I believe are originals, although we may need to cull some that others feel are not, as I respect the immense knowledge of collectors in the UK.

Again, many thanks to all. The King's information was most helpful Peter and Julian.

Best wishes
Chris