Help with Border Regiment badges

[Paul Spellman]

Ray,
You have a far more comprehensive collection to the Borders than what I have
and I am certain we can learn more from you than what you can from us.
I'm sure as I do,others appreciate you showing your collection, I do sometimes lose focus on what my main interests are and seeing your collection is helping me regain that so thank you.
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Hi Ray,
Thought I would add these older badges, a couple of Shako/Glengarry badges to the 34th/55th Regt's of Foot, a Bullion badge for the peaked forage cap to the 34th and a Helmet plate and Shako/ P forage cap badge to the 1st Cumberland and the Westmorland (Kendal) Rifle Volunteers.
I do really like the Victorian period badges.
Paul

[ray smith]

Hi all
A few collar dogs for your appraisal
A big thanks
Ray

[Paul Spellman]

Hi Ray,
I had a bit of trouble replying earlier but all seems ok now.
Your collars are both the 1880's patterns for Regulars and Militia, there was a white metal one for Volunteer Bn's and silver / silver plate for Officers.
Both nice pairs
Paul

[Paul Spellman]

Thought I would revive this thread,after a recent thread on Officers badges with lugs.
There is no doubt that cap badge sized collars were worn on the collar and did have lugs. Some would say that some officers (economising) would wear these lugged collars in the cap and I have came across a cap with a collar type attached but I had no way of knowing if that was originally done by the wearer, I have the two examples which are slight variants of each other (note the Battle honours) either side of the bladed OSD badge.
There are of course many silver cap badges with lugs but it is probably worth noting that the lugs are a bit more extended than what you find on the OSD collar type.
Paul

[Peter Brydon]

Some pictures of the collars in a friends collection which he has now disposed of.

P.B.

[Paul Spellman]

Thanks Peter,
I nice collection there, a couple of which would also of been worn in the FS cap.
Paul

[Longdog]

Hello Ray,

After seeing Paul's post today, it reminded me to show you the Regular Battalion titles I have so you can compare with your examples.
There are at least 3 other titles shown in Westlake neither of us have, so undoubtedly that means there exists a few more besides!

Hope these are of interest.

Paul / Peter,
Thank you for posting the latest photos of what has been a tremendous thread showing so much Border Regiment insignia.

All the best,

Pat

[ray smith]

Thanks Pat for showing the titles Pleased you enjoyed the thread and badges
Thought I would have had a lot more response to the Border Regiment.
If I find anything interesting to this Regiment I will add it to this thread.
Kindest Regards
Ray

[Longdog]

Hello Ray,

Glad you enjoyed seeing the titles and hope of interest to others as well.
I also thought that the Border Regiment would be a very popular collecting theme.

It would be great to see photos posted of any other Regular Battalion titles folks may have.

I will post tomorrow about Volunteer Battalion titles and ask a question (or two!) relating to this which has intrigued me for a while.

All the best,

Pat

[Longdog]

Volunteer Battalion titles:
Westlake states that VB titles were introduced around 1900, being either white metal in finish or blackened brass if Rifle battalions.
Judging by various publications, it seems the issue of these titles was widespread by 1905, so that is the date I generally think as period of use from until the re-designation to the Territorial Force in 1908.

1 V Border title (white metal):
Example of the shoulder title worn by 1st (Cumberland) VB from circa 1905 to 1908.
Note the Border title is typical of the regular Battalion pattern title issued post 1902 (Westlake 1077).

Now for the interesting part, or in my case, confusing (nothing unusual there!)

1 V Border and 2 V Border titles (blackened brass):
Note 1: I do not have either of these titles. Photo is from a friends collection.
Note 2: Both titles are the same pattern, but cannot show a photo of the other example (copyright).
Note the Border title is similar to the regular Battalion early pattern title issued pre 1902 (Westlake 1076).
If these titles are earlier patterns issued from circa 1887 to 1905, why would they be blackened brass finish, if not designated Rifle Battalions, then replaced with the white metal example ?

NB: If the period of use were pre 1887, surely the finish would be correct, but probably not the title pattern as most titles from that period tend to be of the abbreviation / initial format.

I don't have or know of other VB title examples where there are 2 different patterns / metal finishes that were issued.

Question 1:
Are the blackened brass titles early issue pattern titles worn by the 1st and 2nd VB's of the Border Regiment ?

Question 2:
If so, why are the early pattern titles blackened brass and the later patterns issued in white metal ?

Question 3:
Does a 2 V Border title (2nd Westmorland VB) exist in white metal ?

Question 4:
Does a 3 V Border title (3rd Cumberland VB) exist in white metal ?

Apologies if I've rambled on or have asked a daft question or two.
The main reason I joined the Forum was to learn and benefit from other peoples knowledge and experience.

Any feedback or thoughts would be most welcome.
Hope this is of interest.

All the best,

Pat

[mooke07]

You poise some interesting and relevant questions on the finishes of VB shoulder titles for the Border Regiment thanks Pat.

I have often asked myself this of VB shoulder titles for the Lincolns and Leicesters.

i look forward to learning, as you do, from our learned Forum members.

Cheers Dean

[Paul Spellman]

Pat,
Your questions should be able to be answered quite easily considering there was only 2 RIfle Vol Corps in what was to become the Border Regt area mainly present day Cumbria, who post 1881 became the 1st Cumberland Bn VB and the 2nd Westmorland Bn VB but unfortunately they are not.
Before I go on to post 1900, I have only came across an embroidered epaulette on a tunic with '1 V Cumberland' that I can confirm.
In 1899 a company was raised from men who volunteered from the 1st Cumberland VB and 2nd Westmorland VB to reinforce the 1st Bn in S Africa. I believe this effectively set the then 2 Volunteer Bn's to be amalgamated. The dates for this are a bit sketchy, post 1908 they became the 4th TF (Westmorland & Cumberland) Bn Border Regt.
In 1900 a 3rd VB was raised for service in S Africa. I include an image of them formed up in 1900 ready for embarkation to SA, unfortunately the Caption with the image is wrong they were then not the 5th Bn and I think the person who gave this information was a bit confused by the V Cumberland title seen worn on the helmet, mistaking the V for 5 and not Volunteer, however this Bn did post 1908 go on to be the 5th TF (Cumberland)Bn Border Regt.
Now I would not want to confuse you anymore as I am still confused myself what happened post Boer War to 1908 and there not being enough factual information readily available, I think that the original VB's absorbed each other between this period but different companies maintaining 1VB and 2VB status with the wearing of the titles 1VB and 2VB Border.
The 3rd VB raised in 1900 who also liked to be called the Workington Bn remained as such until 1908, I would think it possible that they wore the V Cumberland title until that time.
Neither TF Bn's had Rifle Status so it may have been a unit level decision to blacken them?
Paul
I would add that I suspect similar to the embroidered 1V Cumberland I have seen there may be a 2 V Westmorland.

[Longdog]

Paul,

Thank you very much for detailing so much of the history and timelines associated with the various VB's.
You've provided plenty of information to think about.
It may well have been the case that different companies within the 1st and 2nd VB's wore the variation pattern titles in the period you stated.
I have seen examples of the embroidered pattern title you mentioned.
Would be nice to know if other VB metal titles did exist and if there are examples out there!

All the best,

Pat