1st Cdn Infantry Div & 5 Cdn Armd Div & 1st Cdn Armoured Bde Canvas Collection - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

GregN · #1 19-05-11, 06:01 AM

Hi all, with my Dad's permission I'd like to share a recent find that my father just picked up. This nice frame represents the 1st Infantry and 1st Armoured Division as it existed in Italy. Everything is in canvas with the exception of the Lanark and Renfrew Scottish, which appears to be in Melton. The condition of each piece looks good and there have to be some rare ones in the frame. The Italian map is an old one, a note in the back says names the officer who collected all the insignia and used a map he found in a bombed out house as a memory of his time in the 1st Div. The images are OK, I've asked for better ones. If there is something specific anyone would like to see, let me know.

I am now doing my best to ensure that I end up with this great collection

Greg

Bill A · #2 19-05-11, 11:19 AM

Hi Greg, The board actually represents 1 Cdn Corps in Italy, with 1 Canadian Infantry Division, 5 Canadian Armoured Division, and 1 Canadian Army Tank Brigade (later 1 Canadian Armoured Bde). Nice display.
The Royal Canadian Dragoons canvas title was not worn by the unit during the war. It was not the correct design, and the unit continued to wear the imposed formation patch, or the RCD tablet, or the melton Royal Canadian Dragoons / Canada shoulder title.

GregN · #3 19-05-11, 09:27 PM

Thanks Bill for the info on the RCDs. So what is the RCDs shoulder flash in the frame? As I don't focus on fabric, is this title rare or just a prototype that was never adopted? Likewise, within the poor pictures, what would be considered premium priced by collectors? As I mentioned, everything except the L&R Scots is canvas.

Greg

Bill A · #4 19-05-11, 10:11 PM

Hi Greg, The RCD canvas title is an odd piece. The Canadian insignia policy introduced in early 1944 laid down that units were to wear a plain formation patch with the unit shoulder title. This replaced a whole range of patches that had shown a regimental or corps abbreviation (initials) on the formation patch. One can easily see the inefficiencies and costs for making that insignia.
At the time this decision was made, 1 CATB (1 Canadian Armoured Brigade) and 5 CAD units were wearing "imposed" formation patches. They were also in Italy, far away from the administrative eyes at CMHQ. The Canadian army in the UK was quickly (relatively speaking, as many of the units in the UK had not adopted imposed titles) switched to shoulder titles and plain patches. So, 1st Cdn Army, 2 Cdn Corps, 2 CID, 3 CID, 4 CAD, 2 CAB, formations were basically wearing shoulder titles and plain patches by the summer of 1944. (Some exceptions exist.) The Canadians in Italy were behind the curve on the change, and they were required to submit title designs, which when approved were issued. That took place in the fall and winter of 1944-45. Most of the units in 1 Cdn Corps did not get the printed titles until they arrived in NW Europe.
Some units fell through the bureaucratic cracks. The RCD appear to have been one of the units that were missed. The RCD had been switched from Corps recce to 1 CID Recce Bn when 12 Canadian Infantry Bde existed (summer 1944, until March 1945). At that time they wore the plain 1 CID patch and the RCD tablet title. (RCD initials on a small rectangle.) They were switched back to 1 Cdn Corps recce in March 1945. At that time they were to switch to the plain title and 1 Cdn Corps patch. However,it was not vetted by the Regiment, and it appears it was produced without their knowledge. It did not include the regimental colours, yellow on blue with a red border. Thus a printed title was made that did not meet with regimental approval, and was not worn, though many examples made it into circulation.

GregN · #5 20-05-11, 12:15 AM

Bill, I'm astounded by your breadth of knowledge. Almost every post you make contains a level of detail that is amazing. I'm sure many who read your posts as impressed as I am. I hope I don't make you blush, just feel appreciated for sharing your knowledge.

Greg

servicepub · #6 20-05-11, 02:52 AM

Bill has done what most (nearly all) collectors have avoided - that is, undertaking original research at the Library & Archives Canada. At the risk of sounding self-serving, Service Publications started this trend 15 years ago when I insisted that my authors cite their references and that the subject of any title be thoroughly researched using primary sources.

Quite frankly, I was tired of the militaria show wisdom which seemed to be based on convoluted ways of explaining how every non-standard item was a trial/experimental/prototype/pre-production piece. Or worse, the 'provenance' was attributed to someone's best friend's uncle's second cousin, once removed, on their mother's side.

Bill has spent a considerable amount of time and money to develop his knowledge and he is to be commended. At some point in the future we (Bill and I/Service Publications) hope to be able to bring his knowledge to a wider audience.

GregN · #7 20-05-11, 03:21 AM

That is great news Clive, reserve 2 copies for me - signed by the author, of course.

Now Bill and the rest of the forum, any thoughts on relative rarity of the titles?

Greg

Bill A · #8 20-05-11, 11:39 AM

Thank-you for the compliments. As Clive said, I was tired of the incredible bs that surrounded insignia, in particular cloth, and decided to "get serious" about the history of Canadian army cloth several years ago. What amazes me is that the explanations for most insignia was there, in the documents. It was a matter of digging into the records and sifting through them to find the actual story.
Clive deserves credit for focusing Canadian military publications on a research basis. The entire field of militaria collecting in Canada is developing authoritative references, based on documented sources. These are a significant aid for collecting and researching.
As to the question of rarity, there is nothing in the frame that is rare. Printed titles are highly collectible, and prices have reflected that demand. Some are more desirable, depending on the unit, but if one were to put together a similar collection, it would be attainable.
A couple of notes re the titles. The frame shows the second pattern 49th Loyal Edmonton Regiment. The Lanark & Renfrew Scottish had 6 printed titles made for sealed patterns, but there was no production run. Here is an example of the printed L & R Scottish title.

GregN · #9 20-05-11, 08:28 PM

Hi all, attached are marginally better pictures of the frame.

Cheers,

Greg

chaudiere1944 · #10 19-06-11, 05:10 PM

Hi Greg,

I had the great fortune to meet and chat with your Dad today at the Monthly CSMMI show in Burlington.

He brought along the Frame with the titles discussed in this thread. I can attest to the absolute beauty of the collection. A number of other collectors were also very impressed by it which made it seem like the 'talk' of the show.

Mike

GregN · #11 19-06-11, 07:35 PM

Neat Mike, I haven't called Dad yet and wished him a Happy Fathers' Day. Hopefully he bought some stuff as well as showing stuff. How was the show?

Greg

chaudiere1944 · #12 20-06-11, 02:14 PM

Hi Greg,

The show for me as always was great. It is a smaller venue and show as compared for instance with the Etobicoke show. Because of the size it affords everyone the chance to have great conversations like the one I had with your Dad. I find that some of my best learning about our hobby is done at the monthly Burlington show and would recommend it to anyone who can make it.

As a reminder the CSMMI Annual Convention is next month in St.Catherines. Check out their website for details:

http://www.thecsmmi.com/

Also the next Etobicoke show is Saturday June 25:

http://www.torontomilitaryshow.com/

Mike