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  #1  
Old 13-05-08, 04:26 PM
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Default Sealed Patterns

Most of us are aware what a sealed pattern badge is and what it looks like when its on the card.But who is responsible for them,where are they kept etc ?
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Old 13-05-08, 05:26 PM
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BIG QUESTION !!!!
as far as I'm aware (in the old days) the ACD invited company X to make say, a dozen, badges of the type that they decided on. This would be sent around for final approval, then when everybody was happy, it would be sent out for tender - of courdse company X would have an advantage in that it had made the SP.
It is said that the ACD SPs were eventually given to the RUSI buit when their museum closed in the ?1960s I'm not sure what happened to them.
It is possible that many were kept at Didcot (and we all know that so,me were sold off from there - though as I said there would be more than one), some may have ended up in Leeds along with COD and ACD papers. I'm not sure, I'd LOVE to know. however, the ACD papers have some rubbings of SPs.
There is also the question of officer's SPs, not sure where they are either (though I'm currently chasing an idea).
I hope someone will know.
Julian
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  #3  
Old 13-05-08, 05:52 PM
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Thanks Julian,very informative.
Could some have been destroyed in the Donnington fires?
The reason i asked the question was with regard to the staybrite fantasy list.Items on there have a sealed pattern according to the information in K&K,but nobody has seen them.Im wondering that although a sealed pattern was produced and may exist it doesnt mean that they were actually produced in any quantity above the initial pattern numbers.
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Old 13-05-08, 07:38 PM
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Current sealed patterns are held by the Clothing IPT at Didcot. A master of each obsolete pattern was kept in an archive at Didcot most of these were destroyed in a fire. A second master was sent to the NAM and until recently still were, storage of these patterns is a problem for everyone. The remainder are then offered to the respective museum and the rest, if any, are sold off.

It is not just badges that have master and standard sealed patterns every item has one. Once the five masters and ten standards have been sellected they are kept apart, with only the standards being used for the manufacture of the item.

The pattern will not help with how many were made or how many were issued; they record the following information; pattern number, catalogue number and later the NSN, the catalogue description of the item, the authority file number for the item, the date it was sealed, some times the signature of the person responsible for the pattern and on the back who made them and when. Not all this information is on every card or label, again not every badge gets a sealed pattern if a previous pattern exists it is sometime marked 'to guide for anodised aluminium Cat No' or 'Crown to be St. Edward's. Some of the older Master Patterns have a prototype label that also records the date it was approved by; The Chief Inspector of Clothing, the user, and also for production, the prototype authority (file reference),and proposed designation.

The badge is fixed to the card by a piece of cloth tape which is passed through the card and SEALED on the back with wax and the seal of the Chief Inspector with the shield from the board or ordnance or the Royal Arms. For those of us who have a badge with a hole in the end of the shank or near the top of the shank, then we have a badge that has been made exactly to the pattern, as the hole is for the cloth tape or it is an obsolete pattern. On the more recent patterns the information is on a label and the item secured to it by nylon cord and an MoD metal seal.

Here is an example of a 'Standard Pattern'.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PCard Tyneside Scots 670 LAA wm-01-f.JPG (27.5 KB, 133 views)

Last edited by 54Bty; 13-05-08 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 13-05-08, 08:09 PM
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Thanks 54 bty,thats brilliant.
So,even though a sealed pattern may exist it doesnt mean that the item was produced beyond the initial few for evaluation purposes.
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Old 13-05-08, 08:09 PM
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Mike I did wonder whether you were referring to "recent" SPs - ie for AAs. I know of those on cards. I have to admit I generally lose interest in 1958 - with only a couple of TA units up to 1967 using AA.
I didn't know about "Donnington fires" - are they the ones you, 54, refer to ???
HK once said that he got his info from Didcot - I presume the SP dates. The ACD records were not available when he (Gaylor etc) was writing.
54, As you say, there's lots of useful info in what they record, certainly for earlier ones, eg WHICH variation/type was the "original" sealed one (as I said the 1890s rubbings are useful for this), and maker - this would allow you to distinguish different varieties etc. Then date.
As for using earlier patterns with "modifications" this only tended to come about I think from eg 1920s but is certainly not comprehensive. Some of the ACD records have a SP for a change from one crown to another and even loops to sliders ! In other cases they note "minor change" often with a reference to "see note xyz" - I WISH I knew where these notes were !
I was interested to read about holes in sliders - I assume however you are talking about "modern" AA ones. There was a discussionb about this phenomenon on another forum where it was thought that they were to sew the badge into place on a FSC or a beret (but we are talking 2nd WW time !).
Could anyone tell me if it is possible to visit Didcot and look at the collection there ?
J
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Old 13-05-08, 08:15 PM
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I was referring to more modern badges.But it applies across the board to all badges that had a sealed pattern.
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  #8  
Old 13-05-08, 08:34 PM
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The badges with the holes are metal ones as the aa was not thought to be strong enough.

They are very short staffed and very busy at Didcut, so I would think a visit is not on the cards.

A brass clip of at least two different types ws produced to hold the shanked (slider) badge in the beret.
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Old 04-07-08, 09:44 PM
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Hi Guys,

Going back to the issue of sealing again.

I am trying to discover the manufacturing timeline of anodised aluminium cap badges and I just need to clear up the the start date and end date of production.

To me sealing appears to be a good official starting date of manufacture as the sealed pattern card holds a dated example of the badge being sealed. Is this correct? Granted the badge would have been manufactured before sealing but such initial date of production would be extreamly difficult to retrieve.

Regards

Chris
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  #10  
Old 28-02-21, 01:24 PM
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Default 1901 onwards

I read this thread with great interest as I am trying to identify if Freedom of information act could be used to view them.
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  #11  
Old 01-03-21, 12:12 PM
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The National Army Museum should hold some. Maybe you could arrange a visit to see them.
Marc
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Old 01-03-21, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solent View Post
I read this thread with great interest as I am trying to identify if Freedom of information act could be used to view them.
The FofI Act does not give viewing rights, it deals with the provision of information nothing more.

Dave.
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Old 01-03-21, 12:57 PM
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Please don't use the FOI for this sort of thing. It's not what it's for and having been on the receiving end of them they are a huge amount of time to process.
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Old 01-03-21, 01:05 PM
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That's the motivation for some people I believe - the embuggerence factor.
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Old 01-03-21, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solent View Post
I read this thread with great interest as I am trying to identify if Freedom of information act could be used to view them.
There are more than 400 sealed patterns in this Forum group album:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ures&groupid=7

There are more in members albums and in various threads, search “sealed pattern”

All without leaving your armchair!

Tim
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Last edited by grey_green_acorn; 01-03-21 at 08:04 PM.
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