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  #1  
Old 06-09-20, 06:26 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Default New Zealand Army Pay Corps

Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
- On the 21st of July 1920, Officers were appointed to the New Zealand Army Pay Corps.
- On the 18th of May 1924, Corps was reconstituted and re-established as part of the NZ Permanent Force.
From 1917 to 1924 the first type of badges were worn - see attached photo.

After 1924, the second type of badges were worn (see photo) with Kings crown and NZ to center.

- In 1930 the Corps was disbanded and its function transferred to Civilian Personnel.

Then there is a gap....

Corbett mentions that in 1969 the Corps was re-established, and the second type of badge (with Kings Crown) was still worn.

Then in October 1978, the Corps was given approval for a St Edwards Crown badge - 3rd type, see attached.

What happened during WW2. Was the corps never re-establsihed?

Many thanks and all the best
James
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2757.JPG (111.8 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2758.JPG (97.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2759.JPG (114.1 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2760.JPG (102.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2640.JPG (81.7 KB, 15 views)
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  #2  
Old 06-09-20, 09:35 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
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Hi James,
I do recall that the second type of badge that you show was worn during WW1 (now I think of it, this is the NZDC badge) and that I have noted it in two slightly different sizes (apart of the cap/collar size difference ).
I have this badge which is the NZAPC cap badge size in white metal with a different scroll and a broach pin. I do wonder if this is for a civilian working in the NZAPC office WW2 period???
Barry
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File Type: jpg 5185.jpg (93.4 KB, 12 views)

Last edited by nbroadarrowz; 07-09-20 at 07:30 AM. Reason: Change of mind
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  #3  
Old 07-09-20, 09:26 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevjp View Post
Guys,
Just trying to piece the time-line of the New Zealand Pay Corps.
According to Geoff Oldham's and Dave Corbett's books

- Prior to 1917 the function of the NZ Pay Corps was handled by Civilian personnel.
- On the 31st of May 1917, the New Zealand Army Pay Department was established.
- On the 21st of July 1920, Officers were appointed to the New Zealand Army Pay Corps.
Sadly, most, if not all, of this information is incorrect

Brent
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  #4  
Old 07-09-20, 09:31 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nbroadarrowz View Post
Hi James,
I do recall that the second type of badge that you show was worn during WW1 (now I think of it, this is the NZDC badge) and that I have noted it in two slightly different sizes (apart of the cap/collar size difference ).
I have this badge which is the NZAPC cap badge size in white metal with a different scroll and a broach pin. I do wonder if this is for a civilian working in the NZAPC office WW2 period???
Barry
By any chance do you have any pictures of the "second type of badge" being "worn during WW1"?

Cheers
Brent
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  #5  
Old 07-09-20, 11:06 AM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Guy's,
thanks for getting back to me and a nice badge Barry.

If it helps add to the debate attached is a 2nd type collar to the New Zealand Pay Corps with Gaunt plaque.

Likewise Barry, I have two 2nd type NZDC cap badges with Gaunt plaques as well.

I know the NZAPC existed in WW2 as I have a set to 26325 Sergeant John Leslie Guinness of dog-tags, ID bracelet and Cap badge. He left with the 2nd New Zealand Expeditionary Force, Third Echelon, and served as a Acting Sergeant for NZ Base Pay Office, NZ Army Pay Corps.

If you have time Brent, please let us know what the correct history of this unit was.

All the best and thanks again.
James.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2767.JPG (104.6 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2768.JPG (103.4 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_2769.JPG (93.2 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg guinness.jpg (31.5 KB, 17 views)
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  #6  
Old 09-09-20, 10:50 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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James, my research into the NZAPC is mostly focused on its members who served at Gallipoli, however, I do have some information on the 1917 changes.

When I get a chance on the weekend, I will put something together.

This WW2 picture taken circa 1940 shows a pay and postal officers aboard a troopship.

Pay Corps Two pay and postal officers off duty aboard a 2nd Contingent troopship sailing from Br.jpg

It seems to me that the Pay Corps puggaree was first introduced during WW2.

Pay Corps.jpg
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  #7  
Old 09-09-20, 09:39 PM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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A few points on the timeline of the NZ Army Pay Corps from 1930 to 1947 to help fill in the gaps.
Many accounts state that in 1930 the Corps was disbanded, and its functions transferred to Civilian Personnel, this is only partially correct. In 1930 a large part of the NZ Army was gutted with many solders either forced to retire if in administrative positions such as Pay or Ordnance Corps transferred to the Civil staff to carry on doing the same job as a civilian and at much-reduced rates of pay.
As a result of these retirements and transfers, by the end of 1930, no military members remained in the NZ Army Pay Corps, but although its manpower had been disbanded it remained listed in the Army Regulations as a Corps of the NZ Army.
In the case of the Ordnance Corps, it had been gutted in a similar manner but still retained a small military cadre and as the government's financial situation improved resumed the recruiting of soldiers from around 1933, and it is possible that the Pay Corps followed suit.
In October 1939 a newspaper article was published identifying the different types of Puggaree used by the Army, listing the Pay Corps Puggaree as been Khaki/Yellow/Khaki.
With the mobilisation of the NZEF in late 1939, notices of officers appointed to the NZ Army Pay Corps begin to feature in the New Zealand Gazette from November 1939.
NZ Gazette No 1 of 11 Jan 1940, approved of the following appointments to the Second NZEF, taking effect from 5th January 1940
N.Z, BASE PAY OFFICE.
Paymaster: Major F. Prideaux, N.Z. Army Pay Corps.
Assistant Paymaster: Lieutenant W. C. Morris, N.Z. Army Pay Corps
So there is a documented time frame identifying the existince of the NZ Army Pay Corps from October 1939 with the identification of its new Puggarre, which it could be assumed was worn with the badge last worn in 1930.
Jumping forward to 1947, Amendment No 56 to the Regulations for the New Zealand Military Forces 1927 lists the N.Z. Army Pay Corps as one of the Corps comprising the NZ Military Forces, placing it as eleventh on the seniority list.
So the question to the N.Z. Army Pay Corps timeline is what was its status from 1947 to 1968?
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  #8  
Old 17-09-20, 08:53 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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New Zealand Army Pay Department

NZEF Main Body
NZAPD, Divisional Headquarters, Major James William Hutchen, 15/20
NZAPD, Headquarters Field Cashier, Captain Percy de Bathe Brandon, 15/19
NZAPD, Headquarters Field Cashier, Lieutenant Thomas Lawless, 15/13
NZAPD, Divisional Headquarters, Sergeant Charles Gamble, 15/42
NZAPD, Divisional Headquarters, Private Thomas Joseph King, 15/56
NZAPD, Private Horatio Nelson, 15/70

2nd Reinforcements.
NZAPD, Captain Samuel James Bolton, 15/110
NZAPD, Sergeant Thomas John Lang, 15/118

3rd Reinforcements.
NZAPD, Sergeant Montague Charles Boyes, 21/1
NZAPD, Sergeant John Harold Salmon, 21/2
NZAPD, Sergeant Alfred Thomas West, 21/3

4th Reinforcements.
NZAPD, Field Cashier, Lieutenant George Gordon Priest, 21/4
NZAPD, Sergeant Frank Victor Herbert Coull, 21/6
NZAPD, Sergeant John Booth Lea, 21/7
NZAPD, Sergeant ............21/5?

5th Reinforcements.
NZAPD, Sergeant John Stuart Emerson, 21/8
NZAPD, Sergeant Frank Alexander Lewis, 21/9
NZAPD, Sergeant Cecil Stuart Robertson, 21/10

6th Reinforcements.
NZAPD, Sergeant Harold Joseph Thompson, 21/11
NZAPD, Sergeant-Major Frank Bertram Spilsbury, 21/12

Last edited by atillathenunns; 19-09-20 at 01:40 AM.
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  #9  
Old 17-09-20, 09:07 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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The following picture shows Lieutenant Thomas Lawless, who was the only member of the Main Body Pay Department, who had no previous military experience. He was given the rank of Honorary Lieutenant, promoted full Lieutenant 5th August 1915 on "ANZAC."

Pay Corps Army Pay Department, Field Cashier, Lieutenant Thomas Lawless.jpg
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  #10  
Old 17-09-20, 09:18 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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The following picture shows Major Percy de Bathe Brandon who sailed with the Main Body, as can be seen, he is wearing the badges of the 6th Mounted Rifles, which was the last unit he served with before joining the NZAPD.
He is wearing the South Africa medal ribbon.

Pay Corps Major Percy de Bathe Brandon 2.jpg
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  #11  
Old 17-09-20, 10:51 AM
RNeil RNeil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atillathenunns View Post
New Zealand Army Pay Department

NZAPD, Divisional Headquarters, Private Thomas Joseph King, 15/56
Interesting to see that 15/56 Private Thomas Joseph King was in the NZAPD. It is not surprising as he was an accountant, however his tenure with the NZAPD was short as the NZ Gazette of 8 July 1915 has him listed a a Sergeant in the Wellinton Regiment who was promoted to 2nd Lieuteant in the NZAOC on 3 April 1915.
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Old 18-09-20, 06:01 AM
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dumdum dumdum is offline
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Hi

A contact some years back acquired the NZEF Masonic Association medal to 21/7 John Booth Lea.

From memory it was 9ct and named to Lieut. J. B. Lea and in its original Kenning & Co case.
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  #13  
Old 18-09-20, 06:38 AM
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atillathenunns atillathenunns is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
Interesting to see that 15/56 Private Thomas Joseph King was in the NZAPD. It is not surprising as he was an accountant, however his tenure with the NZAPD was short as the NZ Gazette of 8 July 1915 has him listed a a Sergeant in the Wellinton Regiment who was promoted to 2nd Lieuteant in the NZAOC on 3 April 1915.
Oddly enough, it was researching Brigadier King that led me to research the Pay Department.
Prior to WW1, he worked for the Treasury Department and then the Marine Department. He served 2 years with the Civil Service Rifle Volunteers and 3 years with the 5th Wellington Rifles.

As a member of the Pay Department I suspect King would have been allowed to wear his 5th Wellington badges.

Last edited by atillathenunns; 18-09-20 at 06:43 AM.
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  #14  
Old 18-09-20, 02:57 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RNeil View Post
A few points on the timeline of the NZ Army Pay Corps from 1930 to 1947 to help fill in the gaps.
Many accounts state that in 1930 the Corps was disbanded, and its functions transferred to Civilian Personnel, this is only partially correct. In 1930 a large part of the NZ Army was gutted with many solders either forced to retire if in administrative positions such as Pay or Ordnance Corps transferred to the Civil staff to carry on doing the same job as a civilian and at much-reduced rates of pay.
As a result of these retirements and transfers, by the end of 1930, no military members remained in the NZ Army Pay Corps, but although its manpower had been disbanded it remained listed in the Army Regulations as a Corps of the NZ Army.
In the case of the Ordnance Corps, it had been gutted in a similar manner but still retained a small military cadre and as the government's financial situation improved resumed the recruiting of soldiers from around 1933, and it is possible that the Pay Corps followed suit.
In October 1939 a newspaper article was published identifying the different types of Puggaree used by the Army, listing the Pay Corps Puggaree as been Khaki/Yellow/Khaki.
With the mobilisation of the NZEF in late 1939, notices of officers appointed to the NZ Army Pay Corps begin to feature in the New Zealand Gazette from November 1939.
NZ Gazette No 1 of 11 Jan 1940, approved of the following appointments to the Second NZEF, taking effect from 5th January 1940
N.Z, BASE PAY OFFICE.
Paymaster: Major F. Prideaux, N.Z. Army Pay Corps.
Assistant Paymaster: Lieutenant W. C. Morris, N.Z. Army Pay Corps
So there is a documented time frame identifying the existince of the NZ Army Pay Corps from October 1939 with the identification of its new Puggarre, which it could be assumed was worn with the badge last worn in 1930.
Jumping forward to 1947, Amendment No 56 to the Regulations for the New Zealand Military Forces 1927 lists the N.Z. Army Pay Corps as one of the Corps comprising the NZ Military Forces, placing it as eleventh on the seniority list.
So the question to the N.Z. Army Pay Corps timeline is what was its status from 1947 to 1968?
Many thanks for the superb info and research.
All the best
James.
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  #15  
Old 18-09-20, 05:22 PM
stevjp stevjp is offline
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Guys,
Just to show, a NZ Marine Dept Cap Badge.
A bit worn, eaten and missing the top of its crown.

All the best
James.
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