14th CEF Royal Montreal Regiment Officers Badge - Help Needed - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

GregN · #1 06-02-08, 08:17 AM

Hi guys, I need some help re the 14th CEF - Royal Montreal Regiment officers badge. I recently won one on epay and I'm not convinced that is in fact an officers issue. The seller is a great guy so there will be no issues if I return but I just want to make sure that I am not mistaken in my gut feeling.

The badge appears to me to be made of copper or possibly bronze and is unmarked on the back. The badge does not have a period under the T in REGT. My referance badges are in brass, one with a J.R. GAUNT MONTREAL plaque. The other has a R for Roden on the back. These 2 have a period under the T. All 3 are die-struck.

I have another WW2 era OSD officers badge, it is flat backed, two-piece with screw posts, this one is stamped SCULLY MONTREAL. I have seen another set of cap and collars similar to mine except that the badge is in frosted gilt with a frosted silver maple leaf. I also have a set of what I believe to be WW1 officers collars, again these are flat-backed. Interestingly, there is no T or period in regiment. It is spelled "REG."

For WW1 badges much is said about "superior construction" as it pertains to officers badges. I'm thinking that this does not apply to the badge in question. The badge is not made in a manner similar to existing officers badges in my collection, ie. flat-backed, tangs or screw-posts, maker named, "superior construction," as would be the case in private purchase insignia. So, with all this being said, does anyone else have a CEF 14th Batallion officers badge that we can use as a comparison? The badge on the left is the badge I am unsure of.

Cheers,

Greg

Adam H · #2 06-02-08, 01:27 PM

Greg,

I am at work and don't have any references in front of me so I'll preface my comments with the fact that this is all off the cuff and "gut" reaction:

It seems that the 14th Bn is one of the most difficult of CEF to distinguish officer's patterns from O/R (and indeed WWI, inter-war and later KC issues).

From memory, I don't believe a separate officers' pattern is identified in the Charlton CEF book. Certainly not definitive, but does support my contention above.

The finish does suggest OSD. However the construction, as you point out, does not suggest officer or private purchase quality.

Perhaps the finish really is the only thing to go by with these badges. However, I am not personally convinced that this is necessarily a badge worn by an officer, since many O/R CEF badges are known in this finish as well.

For me, I would not value this above a WWI O/Rs badge in nice condition. Unless it was atributable, I think I would be very wary of any 14th Bn badges of this type that sellers claim to be OSD/Officer issue.

Just my thoughts.

Adam

DavidS · #3 07-02-08, 05:19 AM

Comparing the badge in question on left and badge on far right in your photo of 4 badges, the 'OSD' badge seems to me to be a remake of the die/pattern for the far right-hand badge (or vice versa): same oblate leaf style vs the pointed leaf style of the WW2 badge; 'crappier' crown, with less definition, esp. the top cross and fleur de lis detail, and asymmetrical sides; heavier leaf detailing (veining); different letter spacing both in the motto and in 'CANADA'; more space between the annulus and the bottom scroll; addition of scroll edge lines; etc., etc. You also said the dots were on the other two badges, so I am assuming the dot is not under the 'T' on the right-hand badge either, though I can't tell from your photo.

Totally speculative, but does any of this support the idea that this badge postdates the right-hand sample, i.e. post-1918 but pre-1924? I am guessing 'postdates' just because of the scroll frames, which carry over to the 1924 iteration, as does the heavy leaf veining.

If the right-hand badge is definitively dated, does that give you something to go on? Anyway, total speculation on my part, as I say.

DavidS · #4 07-02-08, 05:33 AM

this one looks like an OSD-type finish matching your right-hand badge

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROYAL-MONTREAL...QQcmdZViewItem

Seathanaich · #5 04-05-14, 03:49 AM

Is there a way to tell 14 Bn CEF badges apart from ones that are 1920s onward, in terms of the Maple Leaf, fonts, etc? Are Gaunt makers tabs only on CEF badges?

whizzbang · #6 05-05-14, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seathanaich

Is there a way to tell 14 Bn CEF badges apart from ones that are 1920s onward, in terms of the Maple Leaf, fonts, etc? Are Gaunt makers tabs only on CEF badges?

The main way I tell is that on the CEF period pattern you can see the tip of the garter belt above the Canada scroll, it disappears on the post-war badges. I believe there are other differences but this is the only one I remember... Cheers, Ian.

Bill A · #7 05-05-14, 07:09 PM

To add a couple more ideas, the maker mark is obviously useful. Tiptaft badges were made in the UK for the 14th Bn. A slider on the king's crown badge is also usually a CEF badge.

Seathanaich · #8 10-05-14, 02:25 AM

Thanks lads. I know about the makers tabs being a good indicator of WWI if Gaunt and a certainty for WWI if Tiptaft. I would have thought a slider early 20s rather than WWI; but you're right, there are some sliders among CEF battalions, so that makes sense. I did NOT know about the 'tab in the garter' rule, but having just compared my WWI, 20-36, 36-52, and 52-67 collections, can see that.