Very Sad! - A Vicious Circle!

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Yes, I meant unnecessary, whoops. Thing is you can't force people to show their badges, or even contribute to the forum. If anything I'd have thought people would be turned off if constantly preached at or insulted and there are many lifelong collectors out there who hate the attitude of some on here when I've spoken to them at fairs.

Up to you though, I'd rather things remained civil.

Keith,
I've heard of some of the conversations that take place at fairs and I have probably been the topic of many and to be honest I don't lose much, if any sleep over it!

I agree nobody can be forced to contribute but some "life long" collectors are also reluctant to accept that newer collectors may just, now and then be able to put across a valid point! I am certainly not a bully as one "Life long" has intimated, and as anyone who really knows me will probably agree I'm quite an affable character! But I give as good as I get and any sarcasm and ridicule often gets returned tenfold"

We all lock horns at times, especially in a virtual environment, but I never turn down a request for help or advice, it's just sometimes the advice is not what some would like to hear!

Thank you and as always best regards

Andy

[Arnhemjim]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Jim,
I'm sorry to see you so annoyed, and please don't take this the wrong way, but when it comes to British Cap badges and I refer to only cap badges and no other form of insignia as this is my particular area of collecting!

But collectors must also be prepared to take the blame for the amount of reproduction items in circulation! After all if people did not buy them, the fakers would not make them and it would also mean genuine items would be more valuable! Now before you bash the keys in a frantic reply, just ask yourself how you now know you have had repros which you bought as genuine? And with the benefit of hindsight would you have bought those items today having been a member if this Forum?

This is not a dig, but knowledge must be shared, it really annoys me when established collectors who know quite a bit about their particular area or specialisation, selfishly refuse to share that with new collectors!

Pile as many badges as you want on you "desk" if you don't share what you know (before you go to meet the big badge collector in the sky) then the inexperienced will continue to be fleeced, crud will continue to circulate and more and more people will leave the hobby!

Ring a bell anyone?

Andy

Andy,
I neglected to indicate that on an on-going basis I'm still doing my share in a positive context to provide knowledge and guidance. Based upon the extent of my knowledge, and with significant contributions from members of this forum, I have published a blog page which incorporates a fair amount of information regarding the subject. If you have the time and inclination, you might want to scan my blog; http://arnhemjim.blogspot.com. Please see both the article on British Militaria, as well as archived individual pages on badges and insigne. Apologies, I should have mentioned this fact in my initial post.

Slainte (Gaelic for "Good Health"),
Arnhem Jim

[badger123]

I understand where Andy is coming from when he says he's annoyed by collectors who know about their area or specialism but don't share that knowledge with others.

If they did, many new or not as knowledgeable collectors would be saved a lot of money and the con artists would be less successful. Surely sharing information is one of the few tools we have at our disposal to fight the fakers and rip off merchants?

Its also patently clear which particular member Andy is referring to when he mentions piling badges on their desk!

I do question why collectors who have copies/fakes sell them on again. Its all well and good saying that they will be sold as fakes but when a dubious dealer buys them at a knock down price, they are bound to turn up again on the market ready to be purchased by an unsuspecting collector but this time as a 'genuine' or an 'original' item.

Why do Trading Standards destroy so much counterfeit booze, cigarettes, CD's, clothing etc? The simple reason is, to keep the fakes out of circulation and to cost the fakers money.

Maybe if badge collectors destroyed some of their counterfeit badges rather than sold them on, there would be less counterfeits/fakes/copies in circulation?

Ivan

[Alan O]

Ivan,

Trading standards are destroying illegal goods. Unfortunately fake badges are not illegal and unlike counterfeit alcohol it is not an offence to sell them!

Alan

[Malcolm Davey]

This is the stance I will be taking from now on if any come into my possession and then binned

Malc

[badger123]

Alan,

I'm not saying it is illegal to sell fake badges, I'm just stating why Trading Standards destroy fake goods and maybe we should follow that example-they do it for a good reason i.e. to keep the fakes out of circulation.

Malcolm,

Now that is a good stance to take. Maybe if more of us followed that example, there would be less fakes in circulation?

Ivan

[2747andy]

Alan,
what a ludicrous statement, it may not be illegal to sell "Fake" badges, but I'd be pretty surprised if were not some sort of offence to sell them as genuine, even allegedly unknowingly?

I can see the requirement for "Copy" badges, but just like the badges sold by the Gurkha Museum, marking them clearly as a "COPY" should be a legal or at least minimum requirement?

I think the majority of reproduction badges are already in circulation, or sat in boxes in a dusty old "Lock Up/Lock Ups" somewhere, just waiting for "Arry the Fake Pedlar" to pick up his next consignment!

Perhaps knowledgeable collectors could stem the flow or circulation by marking the sliders with "COPY"? Does anyone know where a "Hard Numbering" stamp could be produced!

Andy

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Davey

This is the stance I will be taking from now on if any come into my possession and then binned

Malc

Owch!

Malc are you certain the MP badge was not kosher!

A bit drastic but certainly positive!!

Andy

[Alan O]

I would council caution as too many expert dealers are proven wrong and have a commercial interest in their opionions. For example if I had followed the supposed expert advice and destroyed or sold a couple of my badges then I would be considerably poorer when they have turned out to be correct. RND badges spring to mind. Fortunately I still have them.

As for fake goods - unless the badges are copyrighted then they are legitimate reproductions - selling them as genuine is fraud but owning them is not. The trading standards analogy is a bit spurious. By all means destroy as many copies as you wish to buy but there are companys churning them out faster than you!

As an addendum - It's far better to do some research, possibly using the vast amount of threads on this forum which cover most British and Canadian cap badges, and don't buy the fakes in the first place! Whilst the odd one may slip through, a lot of money would be better spent.

Originally Posted by Alan O

I would council caution as too many expert dealers are proven wrong and have a commercial interest in their opionions. For example if I had followed the supposed expert advice and destroyed or sold a couple of my badges then I would be considerably poorer when they have turned out to be correct. RND badges spring to mind. Fortunately I still have them.

I'm in complete agreement here, as I challenge anyone to tell me differently, but no-one is infallible (dealers, authors or otherwise) and no-one is an expert in all areas, all periods and all Regiments and that all important commercial perspective is and has been known on occasion to outweigh integrity, I will put my hands up and admit to having bought more than one dubious badge in the past, both from dealers and secondly from the likes of ebay, now as to how I dispose of the ones I know or think to be copies/re-strikes, I stick them all on one card clearly marked as gap fillers/copies and offer them for sale at £2 or so, as to what then happens to any sold badge is down to the integrity of the buyer, this way I get a little bit of money back without trying to deceive anyone.

Regards,
Marcus

[Jelly Terror]

.............................

[ubervamp]

Hi guys

When I started collecting, I was amazed, and disheartened at the amount of fakes making the rounds, compared to other fields of collecting I'd been engaged in.
A short while in I had to make a choice; either try to learn to tell fakes or give up the hobby.
I started compiling notes and "tells" of well known and accepted fake badges, through reading up on threads, and through corresponding with some very helpful members, willing to share their time and knowledge.
My main challenge is, living abroad, I don't get to handle badges I'm interested in, and am often stuck squinting at tiny pics, or reference books to discern if they're genuine or not.
Often that won't suffice.
After a while I asked members of the forum if they had any fakes lying around they would send me for reference purposes. Several members kindly did, and I have to say it was a revelation for me to be able to be able to handle the badges and feel differences in quality, study and compare to good one I had. That was a watershed moment for me, and combined with guidance, I actually feel quite confident about certain badges I've had time to study.

Personally, I could not stand to have a pure gap-filler in my collection, as it would annoy me every day.

No moral to this anecdote, other than to say that at least in my case, these fakes have served an invaluable learning experience.

It's a shame that so much of my badge-collecting time is involved with identifying fakes,
But, as for now, it comes with the territory.
And to that end, I would think that sellers with financial interests, or purely collectors like myself, both benefit from weeding out the bad ones.

Cheers

Colin

[Phil2M]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Davey

This is the stance I will be taking from now on if any come into my possession and then binned

Malc

Dave could have those as good as new in no time

[Frank Kelley]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Davey

This is the stance I will be taking from now on if any come into my possession and then binned

Malc

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by Malcolm Davey

This is the stance I will be taking from now on if any come into my possession and then binned

Malc

Don't bin 'em Malc........ Save them up until you have a load and then to the scrap yard you go At least you'll get something back. Just make sure you see them go in the pot though, I would hate to see them turn up as "battlefield relics" one day.

On the other hand, hopefully you will never have enough to warrant a trip.

Seriously though, I am not convinced that smashing them up will have any affect on the steady flow of fakes onto the market. I am also reluctant to take this action "just in case". It has been suggested that the Military Police "might" have been OK. Just think of all those RND badges..................