17/21st lancers what is it?

[Saddle tree maker]

Please don't think that what I have posted is a broad analysis of unofficial badge wear by the armed forces.
Far from it, the wearing of unofficial devices by the British army is a vast subject on it's own and there are many, many badges like those mentioned by cardiffbloke that are as legitimate in collections as much as the issued badges.
I do feel strongly, however, that with the vast majority of the modern era cap badges, a distinction should be made - however difficult it would be - between them because of their greatness in number and their open sale to museums and shops etc.
That's all I was trying to point out, and apolgies for any misunderstanding of this.
STM.

[Cardiffbloke]

No worries Butty..... I collect anything insignia wise worn by KDG/Bays/QDG from cap badges to horse brasses, from NCOs Arm Badges to Trumpeters Pouch Badges, from Soldiers shoulder titles to Officers Pouch belts.... and very fine they are too....and all 'worn items'.......
One day my kids are going to be very rich!!!!!

[cbuehler]

Well, this has turned into a thought provoking thread. Goes to show the different takes one can have regarding what constitutes a good badge or not.
It would seem that the particular badge (motto) in question falls somewhere in the no mans land of maybe and maybe not.
It did come from a source that has had it for at least 20 years, and it was purchased by me for the the astronomical sum of 10 dollars. I knew it wasnt a old "good" badge, but also that it was not one of the "typical" restrikes or fakes either. The quality is rather good (certainly better than the AA issue.)
I think it I shall hold onto it just because of the opinions, good and bad, that have been well expressed in the responses here.

CB

[Faugh-A-Ballagh]

The last time I visited Bovington museum, about 1991, they had a super selection of current issue RAC / Cavalry badges, and I bought all the ones that I didn't have in my collection. All were anodised apart from the QDG's and the 14/20th Hussars which was blackened brass. The QDG's was a very nice white metal, and I could see why the regiment preferred this to the anodised item. I also had dealings with the Life Guards over a short period, and I noticed that they nearly all were wearing brass cap badges, which were all so polished that the writing was all but obliterated. When I served, in our company, we were ordered to have our cap badges painted black, which I don't think any other company in the battalion was doing then. It just shows that in different units, there are all sorts of traditions relating to the badge worn, al sanctioned at different levels.

[fearnaught]

Hi, just to really muddy the water. A para friend of mine used to take all the equipment they had "liberated" on exercises to Warnham and swop them for repro K/C para badges which he then sold to his unit as they didn't like the anodised badge.

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by fearnaught

Hi, just to really muddy the water. A para friend of mine used to take all the equipment they had "liberated" on exercises to Warnham and swop them for repro K/C para badges which he then sold to his unit as they didn't like the anodised badge.

To further this, I have a friend who swappped cap badges with a member of the pipes and drums of the Black Watch not too many years ago on tour here in the states. It is a WM restrike with Kings crown!

CB

[bess55]

I believe a very astute comment from STM above. As a serviceman, I was issued A/A cap badge, collars and shoulder titles but once at my Regt I found they wore brass titles which had to be 'purchased' from the PRI shop, the A/A titles were never seen again. However as a FOO I was attached to many infantry Regts and didnt see any brass badges being worn only A/A. No boubt someone will follow this up with 'oh yes they did' and give loads of examples, however this was my experience. When attached to 1st Bn Scots Guards in Cyprus, the PRI shop at Episkopi Garrison sold A/A, A/A (black) and brass versions of their cap badge. As a collector since a boy, I of course bought one of each. I never saw the brass version being worn though.

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by Saddle tree maker

I
If AMMO or whoever, stamped out 5000 15th19th hussars badges, and let us say for argument's sake, 2000 ended up in the army stores, that does not make ALL of these badges private purchase and it does not make them all in any way original.

STM,

I am not sure of the point you are making here. Are you saying the 2000 that end up in Army Stores and are worn by the Regiment can be regarded as genuine, because the troops actually wore these badges, but the 3000 badges that don't get into the Army stores but are sold to collectors are not genuine, even though they came from the same die run?

Regards
Chris

[Saddle tree maker]

Chris,
These badges were not made specifically for the armed forces, there was no request for them by the MOD and no tendered contract and/or sealed pattern with no overall issue of them, etc.
They were made for commercial sale to museums, shops, individual dealers and yes some of them were indeed purchased as replacements and a few were worn by individual soldiers/regiments - certainly not worn en masse - and this is why I have difficulty classing them as genuine and therefore collectable.
As a collector I prefer to avoid them for these reasons.
There are thousands of these badges on the market and they are still being produced at present and each individual collector must make up their own mind whether or not to collect them based on their interpretation of all the information available.
In a nut shell, I personally don't class any as genuine, worn or not.
STM.
Footnote: As an example of the way my mind work's on this subject, let us take the QC issue for the Royal Armoured Corps which was sealed in white-metal in 1954.
Production then ceased when it was replaced with the anodised version which was sealed in 1958. 10 or 15 years later AMMO and other firms
start producing them commercially (All in my opinion restrikes) and members of the corp wear them after them being made available from the stores.
So, in effect, these individuals were wearing restrikes.
The QC white-metal badge is a collectable badge, but IMO only those from the 1954-58 production.

[Chrisr]

STM,

Thank you for that explanation. I see the point you are making.

Regards
chris

[Sonofacqms]

One of the problems amongst collectors has been the badges that are now classed as restrikes, what is a restrike?
As a young collector, I spent my holiday money in the 1950's on badges, (my Father thought I was mad), but people in the Military Tailors were happy to accept my 10/- (50p) for such items as Army Educational Corps, REME kc, Parachute Regt QC all at 6d (2.5p) each plus cloth WWII badges at 3d (1.25p) each, this included USSAF 8th Airforce patches.
Now would you say these were restrikes? None had been worn as far as I am aware, the AEC had not been worn officially since 1946 when it was granted the Royal title. Obviously they were kept in stock as replacements for Regular Soldiers and National Servicemen who probably had lost their badges to girlfriends or other souvenir hunters (Badge collectors).
These badges are still after 50+ years still in my collection with a note of where I purchased them from and the price paid.
Would they have been classed as a private purchase or restrikes?

[ard-ri]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but. Let's say you are a new, young collector. You have been collecting badges for maybe 6 mos or a year. You are quite proud of your little collection. You are not aware that most of your badges are re-strikes/fakes. You find this forum and are very excited. Then you read the comment that because your badges are not "original", they are "crap". Try and place yourself in the position of this young collector. Poor little fella now has a broken heart because an experienced collector has just said his little collection is crap. Tsk, Tsk you unfeeling, insensitive bad man



Cheers, Michael

[Saddle tree maker]

I think trying to determine between all the repro/restrikes may be too difficult with the vast and varying amounts of them past and present and it may be easier to decide on what makes a badge original.
I'll start the ball rolling as I am sure other forum members will have their own interpretations.

IMO - An original badge is one which is manufactured specifically for the armed forces at the request of the WO for issue to the regiments and in some cases were an individual regiment has requested and/or had badges made specifically for themselves.
The two points here are....
1 - The WO requests and then tenders contracts to badge makers, sealed patterns are then produced and accepted and distributed throughtout the armed forces for issue and then for any further requests from the regiment thereafter.
2 - The regiment themselves request/need/want a badge to be made privately for their men, either here or abroad and sometimes these will be made abroad, often cast.

If the badges that fall outside of this were worn by individuals, fair enough, but in collecting terms - these are reproduction (restrike) badges that are sold through many outlets commercially and have been used by some individual regiments as an alternative for the badges mentioned in points 1 and 2.

All of the above is my own personal badge collecting standpoint
STM.

[bess55]

Gents, maybe one point we are mising is this. Your average squaddie lets say is not necessarily as fanatical about his cap badge as we all are! He is issued with for example an A/A badge and is either 'told' to get a brass one (and there are loads of anecdotal examples of this practice in many threads) or the practice has become the norm for the troops to discard the A/A version and simply wear a brass one. This practice may or may not be sanctioned or even Regimentally recorded anywhere. As I stated above I wore brass titles after being issued anodised, but I bet its not recorded anywhere. They were'nt actually great qualtity but I still have them in my collection as they were worn by regular soldiers. Its a very emotive subject and clearly one close to our hearts. For my money I'm in STM's camp on this one. You do have to draw a line somewhere perhaps. Just because a squaddie buys an AMMO UK piece of rubbish to wear (either from his Regt or privately) and is sanctioned for wear officially or locally, does it make it viably desirable for inclusion in a serious collection? It does of course depend on how you view these matters. Much is often made of rare cap badges that were made locally in India around the turn of the century etc, are of poor quality, rare as hens teeth and demand a high price to the collector. Perhaps the phenomenon of the private purchase badge that are not 'issued' or officially sanctioned are the modern example of this in some way?

[Cardiffbloke]

Oh Mammy!! This thread is getting worse and worse!! Every post seems to get ever more confusing and full of psycho-babble....
Let’s call a truce.... Everyone collect whatever it is you want to collect and no more criticisms of anyone else, collecting whatever it is they want to collect.....
I will continue to collect, catalogue and research everything worn by KDG, Queen's Bays and QDG even if it was made by a man the individual soldier knew down his street; some Ram-a-Lang-a-Ding-Dong in a bazaar in Delhi or in Officers cases, a Jeweler in Bond St.
STM can continue to collect WO sanctioned stuff only.... even if it was never worn by anyone at all!
Then everyone can be happ, happ, happy and we can all chat again 'constructively' about something else!!