RND - Drake Bn - Thoughts Please?

[2747andy]

Advance Warning - As this Cap Badge does not fall into my area of collecting it will probably be offered for sale on my Ebay site or I would be open to any reasonable offers made by viewers of this thread. Please do not contribute if you object to me obtaining information via the Forum on an item intended for future sale.

A recent find and without a "Gaunt" plate or sweatholes I'm pretty confident this is genuine. It also features a non-voided crown which is not common either. It has plenty of positive features, such as the detail, weight, patina, braze and sturdy "D" shaped lugs! I feel it could be a non-Gaunt makers variation! Any thought please?

Andy

[Chrisr]

Andy,

This is mine, which I know is genuine, for comparison. Like yours mine it has no sweatholes and no Gaunt plaque, but it does have a voided crown.

IMO the view that 99.5% of RND badges have the gaunt plaque is pure tosh, as of all six of the RND badges I have, acquired in 1962 from an old collection, only one has a gaunt plaque.

I wonder just how many RND badges have been consigned to the fake box based on comments that have no foundation or basis of truth. I think there are more variations of the RND badges than previously thought.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

Andy,

This is mine, which I know is genuine, for comparison. Like yours mine it has no sweatholes and no Gaunt plaque, but it does have a voided crown.

IMO the view that 99.5% of RND badges have the gaunt plaque is pure tosh, as of all six of the RND badges I have, acquired in 1962 from an old collection, only one has a gaunt plaque.

I wonder just how many RND badges have been consigned to the fake box based on comments that have no foundation or basis of truth. I think there are more variations of the RND badges than previously thought.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Chris

Chris,
I agree with you 100% that there are probably genuine "Plaque less" RND badges out there, however they would of all had to comply with a basic pattern. In my opinion (IMO), where the fakers have slipped up in the copying process is their attention to detail! Details on Drake Bn
Badges such as:

Globe Shape - Semi-circular and not cone shaped!
Globe Detail - Copies tend to have incorrect and missing landmasses!
Depth of Strike - Copies tend to be flatter than originals!

Just a few observations, but when you study them, copies are quite easy to spot!

Thanks for your reply and best regards.

Here is one like yours! and here is a copy IMO

Andy

[Chrisr]

Hi Andy,

I agree with you. Too often these badges have been faked.

Thanks for the links - the fake stands out quite clearly - eg leaves an crown in particular.

All the best.

Cheers
Chris

[dubaiguy]

Andy
Of course the other main howler on fakes are the words Auxilio Davino not being separated. Unlike yours obviously - a good sign.

But........I don't like the land mass on your badge. It certainly doesn't appear to represent the contiguous land mass of Northern Europe as seen on those that are deemed original badges. IMO the UK and Ireland are usually well defined in the square that is formed by the intersecting lines of longitude and latitude; second up from the bottom and second in from the left. All I can see on yours is a squiggle. And what's going on in the middle of France. There shouldn't be a horizontal coast defining line snaking across the bottom of the badge just south of Paris.

Also for me, the hatching on the ships quarterdeck appears poorly defined and the anchor is out of scale.

I'll be the contrarian in the pack and say, it is miles better than all the usual fakes I have seen, but the badly represented map of Europe gives me doubt. Hmmm! Verdict, guilty until proven otherwise.

Cheers
Mark

[2747andy]

Mark,
I'm now certain it is right and fairly certain too that it did not come from the standard "Gaunt" die? The oak leaves are very detailed and also the detail to the ship, however there is some distortion to the area left of the anchor. The detail to the rigging and the free flying pennant also lead me to believe it to be a genuine example from another manufacturer? I agree on the Landmass detail, but it is crisp both front and rear! As to France, who cares what goes on there.

Andy

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by dubaiguy

Andy
Of course the other main howler on fakes are the words Auxilio Davino not being separated. Unlike yours obviously - a good sign.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark,

How do you explain mine - the words are not separated, but I know the badge was collected in the 1920's/1930's and I acquired it from the old collector in 1962.

What is the basis that Auxilio Davino not being separated definitely makes it a fake?

Cheers
Chris

[dubaiguy]

Very Interesting Chris.

I must admit I did not notice it on yours. I have a couple of known fakes, each with the central meridian line missing, the UK not on the map and a flat poor strike. In each case the words are joined together.

I also have a genuine (Gaunt tablet) badge with all the above features present (plus different planking on the boat, different pennants, sweat holes etc). On this badge the words are clearly separated as they should be. I'm not latin schooled, but they are two discreet words I believe.

I cannot argue that there are not other genuine examples that have one of these features (or lack of feature). You and Andy may be quite correct that there are genuine strikes other than the Guant strike generally accepted as kosher.
Judging by your comments on provenance it would seem to be the case and bears out your arguement for multiple manufacturers.

It makes you wonder what the fakers used as their template to copy. Could it have been the joining of the words on your badge? Interesting.

All the best
Mark

[Chrisr]

Thank you Mark.

From viewing my collection and the badges posted on this forum, I now believe there were at least two if not three different manufacturers. The Nelson I have from the same period is a design that was considered a fake badge on the basis of someone saying so in the 1970's. There are fake copies of it but one can see differences between the obvious fakes and mine, but because someone said the design was fake it was accepted unquestioningly the whole badge was fake.

Nor do I believe 99.5% of the genuine ones have gaunt plaques - it seems there are now fake gaunt plaques so I am not sure such a plaque makes an RND kosher anymore, which is a shame.

Perhaps we should set up a page with genuine RND badges form people's collections?

On a larger scale, I am just wondering how many of the differences thrown up as indicator of a fake badge are on the basis of someone's say so, rather than based on sound facts. The fakers really have caused problems in the hobby, but I guess that gives us an added challenge in collecting.

Cheers
Chris

[royston]

RND DRAKE badge with Gaunt Plate and Sweat hole for comparison. I have another, heavy bronze, which I have been informed, by an expert auctioneer, is a copy. I have always had my doubts! and will put it on the forum shortly

John

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Advance Warning - As this Cap Badge does not fall into my area of collecting it will probably be offered for sale on my Ebay site or I would be open to any reasonable offers made by viewers of this thread. Please do not contribute if you object to me obtaining information via the Forum on an item intended for future sale.

A recent find and without a "Gaunt" plate or sweatholes I'm pretty confident this is genuine. It also features a non-voided crown which is not common either. It has plenty of positive features, such as the detail, weight, patina, braze and sturdy "D" shaped lugs! I feel it could be a non-Gaunt makers variation! Any thought please?

Andy

There's a stall over in the far corner at the Bromley fair and he's had the same badge there for the last three visits I've been too and it's still there so I think that tells a story in itself. There also the fact that every other badge he has for sale is a load of ..... These things have been around donkeys years and patina isn't a selling point.

[2747andy]

Keith,
many thanks for your views, however I am pretty certain it is genuine and that's good enough for me!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2908589598...84.m1555.l2649

Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Keith,
many thanks for your views, however I am pretty certain it is genuine and that's good enough for me!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2908589598...84.m1555.l2649

Andy

2nd time lucky then.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

2nd time lucky then.

Keith,
not all items sell first time around and as I don't sell fakes, copies or reproduction items, I don't really care how many times it is relisted.....

I don't have to make up Cock n' Bull stories to sell badges, unlike some desparate dealers!

Best regards

Andy

[2747andy]

This is one I've been able to add to my own collection (I don't collect or sell repros'!) In very good condition and although it shows genuine signs of age it also retains it's original gilt finish, something the fakers have yet to replicate that well!

Andy