Gaunt Buttons

[GTB]

Crave your indulgence with this one.
It is a beautifully manufactured officers gilt spunback 26mm Machine Gun Corps button. No backmark, only 2 concentric beaded circles.
Any ideas as to its pedigree? Has anyone got similar?
The scan is atrocious, I know, but there should be enough to get the message across
GTB

[Cribyn]

Hello GTB

Yes, a very nice button and perfectly genuine I'm sure but with another of those 'design' backmarks that are so annoying.

I think we could start another thread trying to tie designs down to different manufacturers - only I don't think we would get anywhere!

Roger

PS I should have added that I have a few buttons, same quality, same backmark design. I will see if I can find some of them - my 'filing' system is awful though!

[GTB]

I sadly confirm that my 24L button has the flawed G and T, albeit no greenish hue

GTB

[davidwyke]

As Roger says, it's one of numerous generic backmarks; usually used to conceal the manufacturers identity when the button was sold through a retailer or wholesaler. The button itself is perfectly genuine.

I'm not even aware of any fake buttons with these type of backmarks, although there are SOME fakes with no backmark at all.

David

[GTB]

[QUOTE=Cribyn;347693]Hello GTB

Yes, a very nice button and perfectly genuine I'm sure but with another of those 'design' backmarks that are so annoying.

Thanks for that. My only qualm is that it is so very pristine, as if just came out of the machine shop. It's also solid make, unlike so many lightweight hollow buttons.

GTB

[GTB]

I'm posting this lovely MPSC GRvi 23mm frosted gilt button.
The spunback has a complete backmark however, ominously,there is a chamfer leading down from the wording to the rim. Could this be the raised 'dome' referred to ? I hope not, cos regardless, I'll defend its integrity. The chamfer was machined after the backmark was struck.
GTB

[Cribyn]

[QUOTE=GTB;347698]

Originally Posted by Cribyn

Hello GTB

Yes, a very nice button and perfectly genuine I'm sure but with another of those 'design' backmarks that are so annoying.

Thanks for that. My only qualm is that it is so very pristine, as if just came out of the machine shop. It's also solid make, unlike so many lightweight hollow buttons.

GTB

Hello GTB

Don't forget that this pattern of button was also used by the Canadian Machine Gun Corps until 1936, the Canadian 2nd Motor Machine Gun Brigade until 1941 and the Canadian Prince Rupert Regiment until 1946, so it may not be as old as you think.

Mind you, I am not saying yours is Canadian but it has to be a possibility and this applies to all those 'First World War' Machine Gun Corps buttons out there - unless, that is, someone knows that the Canadian ones all had 'Scully' or similar Canadian maker backmarks.

Roger

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by GTB

I'm posting this lovely MPSC GRvi 23mm frosted gilt button.
The spunback has a complete backmark however, ominously,there is a chamfer leading down from the wording to the rim. Could this be the raised 'dome' referred to ? I hope not, cos regardless, I'll defend its integrity. The chamfer was machined after the backmark was struck.
GTB

Hi GTB

Sorry to say that your button isn't MPSC (or Military Police). Their buttons were rimless and with a plain background. I'm not sure they wore gilt buttons at that time either.

The button you have was worn by various uniformed civilian organisations. It may also have been worn as a Court button but can't remember off-hand,

I have them in a few sizes with various backmarks. The only large size Gaunt example I have has the older JR Gaunt mark, although I have a smaller one with "Gaunt London".

I don't think the domed back on it's own is a reason for concern

David

[Cribyn]

Originally Posted by GTB

I'm posting this lovely MPSC GRvi 23mm frosted gilt button.
The spunback has a complete backmark however, ominously,there is a chamfer leading down from the wording to the rim. Could this be the raised 'dome' referred to ? I hope not, cos regardless, I'll defend its integrity. The chamfer was machined after the backmark was struck.
GTB

I think the raised 'dome' mentioned earlier has to be taken with the other 'restrike' indicators mentioned. I would be more than happy with the one you have shown.

David may well be right about the ID of your button but either way I am sure it is not a restrike.

Roger

[GTB]

Well done, Roger. I obviously did forget this. I'll pursue this line

Thanks

GTB

[GTB]

Re my 'MPSC' button - I'll have to revisit where I obtained my info.
GTB

[GTB]

Further to RHG QC gilt, a younger cousin of mine who was in the Blues & Royals told me that WOs and Offs wore gilt buttons however awaiting further info from the RHG/1D association
GTB

[GTB]

Originally Posted by GTB

Although my third button (RHG QC) is identical to the RDF and RInnF, I refuse to accept as a restrike. It is interesting that the RHG QC a/a version has 'FIRMIN LONDON backmark


GTB

Submitting the gilt and a/a versions side by side. Note that same or identical die used on both. The gilt is 'GAUNT. LONDON' with flawed G and T; the a/a is 'FIRMIN. LONDON'. I maintain the gilt is not a restrike. A restrike of.....what??
The logical answer to this conundrum is that the flawed backmark was also utilised for authentic buttons.

GTB

[Rob Miller]

A couple more thoughts.

The assumption seems to be that there is no such thing as a restrike or fake AA button because none of us can think of a reason why someone would intentionally make one.

The trouble is there are lots of possible scenarios in which items of insignia are produced and then not used, once created its cheaper to discard something or sell it on to someone else than recycle it, even if its chucked in a skip it can be removed again (or so I'm told).

Some possible scenarios for this could be mistakes in the factory, accidental overproduction, "oops I'm sure the order said ten million", use of the wrong dies, "its got the wrong crown you muppet" or badly struck, "well I've never actually used this machine before guv".

The word "restrike" is a bit ambiguous too, arguable if a factory in contracted to make a batch of 10,000 buttons, the price could include the production of dies, 2 years later another contract is placed and the same dies are used, couldn't you argue that these are restrikes?

Going back to my QC RHG, I don't know why it was made, but it was never issued and it was disposed of through a factory outlet, so on the one hand that makes it a wrong un. But it was made by Gaunt in dies used for issue buttons in a period that they were worn which makes it alright.

Clear as mud Rob.

[Cribyn]

Hello Rob

You said "Going back to my QC RHG, I don't know why it was made, but it was never issued and it was disposed of through a factory outlet, so on the one hand that makes it a wrong un. But it was made by Gaunt in dies used for issue buttons in a period that they were worn which makes it alright".

You may well be right about the circumstances surrounding your button but in my view it is an 'unissued' button, not 'a wrong-un'.

How many badges have reached the collectors' market in unissued condition? Does this make all unissued badges, buttons, uniforms and so on 'wrong-uns'? I don't think so. It is your button after all and you can call it what you like but I am quite happy to say that it is a genuine issue even if never issued to a serving soldier!

Roger