Somerset Militia

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Mine has 1900-01

Thanks Keith, what does it look like? Is 3rd VB stipulated within its design? If not what differs it from the other badges with the SA honour, including that of 4th and 5th TF?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by denis pannett

Many thanks Toby for your very helpful informatory comments, so pleased to have found out what it is at last!
Regards Denis

It’s a super badge with a story behind it, you’re very fortunate to have it as typical of the time.

[Wmr-RHB]

Gentlemen, I am at a loss again about the badge advised to @grenadierguardsman.

He asked:

I have a relation that served in the Somerset Militia pre 1860's-70's.

As far as I know both Militia Regiments were still no Light Infantry, still had no connection with the then 13th (1st Somersetshire) (Prince Albert’s Light Infantry) Regiment of Foot, and used the "scroll" badges on the pill box cap.

[grenadierguardsman]

Thanks Henk.
Andy

[Keith Blakeman]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Thanks Keith, what does it look like? Is 3rd VB stipulated within its design? If not what differs it from the other badges with the SA honour, including that of 4th and 5th TF?

Here you go.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Here you go.

Thank you Keith, very helpful and concludes things in my mind nicely, having with your input followed through now what the VBs and Militia did in relation to each other.

[Alan O]

One more question is what the 3rd VB wore prior to the SA honour of 1905?

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Keith Blakeman

Here you go.

Originally Posted by Wmr-RHB

I am following this with interest indeed.

I’m sorry for the delay in getting back to you as promised Henk, I’ve been distracted by another matter.

Having investigated this as far as I can now, with the help of input from Dennis Pannett, Keith Blakeman and Alan O, I feel I can give a conclusion concerning your SLI insignia with specific regards to the Militia. My rationale is based upon a combination of what is known about uniform, and my personal opinion based on images and / or probabilities relating to the insignia worn with that uniform.

The probabilities aspect is underpinned by the fact that unlike the VB the Militia were wholly funded by the War Office and were thus equipped with uniforms and insignia more closely aligned in terms of design with the regular army. This was in comparison with the very different subscription and County Associations model of the Volunteer (and subsequently Territorial) Battalions who had far greater autonomy over their uniform and insignia until the late 1880s when reforms took effect.

With all of the foregoing in mind, I see things approximating as follows:

1. 1834 to 1854 - uniform comprising red coatee with trousers** and headdress of knitted Kilmarnock bonnet bearing brass letters SM with crown over.

2. 1855 to 1875 - uniform comprising red (scarlet from 1872) tunic with trousers and headdress of Kilmarnock bonnet with universal curved scroll type insignia bearing Somerset county name and symbol# or crown over. SNCOs and officers with superior headdress and insignia. First and Second Regiments each with slightly differing badge as per the images up thread.

3. 1876 to 1893 - uniform comprising scarlet tunic with trousers and headdress of glengarry cap with discrete Somersetshire county cap badge surmounted by crown. SNCOs and officers with superior quality headdress and insignia. First and Second Regiments.https://hansard.parliament.uk/Common...ilitiaUniforms. Also:https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/...litiaRegiments

4. 1894 to 1902 - uniform comprising scarlet tunic with trousers and headdress of Austrian type field service cap with discrete collar type badge in gilding metal as cap insignia. SNCOs and officers with superior quality headdress and white metal collar type insignia of similar design. From this point I believe that both the battalions of militia wore identical insignia. Item 4 - Mr Childers statement:https://hansard.parliament.uk/Common...”ArmyEstimates

5. 1902 to 1908 - uniform comprising scarlet tunic with revised cuffs worn with trousers and headdress unchanged for rank and file. SNCOs and officers with new headdress of peaked forage cap¥ and larger discrete insignia similar to the regular army badge, but with Laurel spray on the upper scroll in place of JELLALABAD.

** generally loose fitting and very high waisted.

# these ranged from grenade or bugle for the two flank companies to rose symbols for counties such as Yorkshire, Lancashire and Hampshire.

¥ the caps for rank and file did not commence issue until 1905 and were a low priority for the militia so it’s doubtful any were issued before 1908 when the Militia were stood down. It’s also unlikely that they received the generally disliked Brodrick cap worn by regulars between 1902 and 1905.

[grenadierguardsman]

Excellent Toby thanks.
Andy

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

Having investigated this as far as I can now, with the help of input from Dennis Pannett, Keith Blakeman and Alan O, I feel I can give a conclusion concerning your SLI insignia with specific regards to the Militia

5. 1902 to 1908 - uniform comprising scarlet tunic with revised cuffs worn with trousers and headdress unchanged for rank and file. SNCOs and officers with new headdress of peaked forage cap and larger discrete insignia similar to the regular army badge, but with Laurel spray on the upper scroll in place of JELLALABAD.

Sorry but this is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the Militia wore a badge with a laurel spray. There is still no evidence the badge is righteous and not a fantasy item. I would invite anyone with such a laurel spray badge that has provenance or they believe is genuine to show it.

The only Somerset Militia insignia I’ve seen with any embellishments that are not a generic VR cypher is the attached officers WBC. Centre is a stylised but ‘generic’ bugle.

Far more likely they wore such a bugle similar to the attached in Wm or the centre for HPC sans Jelalabad scroll. For all we know they continued wearing the fsc and did not adopt a SLI full size ‘cap badge’.

Ultimately only a photograph of the Militia 1902-08 will definitively resolve this question, everything else including my idea is pure speculation. It is certainly not ‘conclusive’ as you claim.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Sorry but this is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking.

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the Militia wore a badge with a laurel spray. There is still no evidence the badge is righteous and not a fantasy item. I would invite anyone with such a laurel spray badge that has provenance or they believe is genuine to show it.

The only Somerset Militia insignia I’ve seen with any embellishments that are not a generic VR cypher is the attached officers WBC. Centre is a stylised but ‘generic’ bugle.

Far more likely they wore such a bugle similar to the attached in Wm or the centre for HPC sans Jelalabad scroll. For all we know they continued wearing the fsc and did not adopt a SLI full size ‘cap badge’.

Ultimately only a photograph of the Militia 1902-08 will definitively resolve this question, everything else including my idea is pure speculation. It is certainly not ‘conclusive’ as you claim.

You are entitled to your opinion, as I’m entitled to mine. I didn’t say ‘conclusive’ I said conclusion, which was of my personal research, as I made crystal clear. I also emphasised probabilities, and not definitive proof. We are talking about centuries past as is palpably obvious, and so we’re reliant on what is known from contemporary images and regulations and then required to fill in the gaps with rational propositions. That is what I’ve done. Take it or leave it, you are invariably negative about anything you can’t find in a photograph so I expected nothing less from you and do not give a fig what you think.

[stenoyab]

Here's a First Somerset Militia WBC with a Laurel on the outer ring.

[Hoot]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

You are entitled to your opinion, as I’m entitled to mine. I didn’t say ‘conclusive’ I said conclusion, which was of my personal research, as I made crystal clear. I also emphasised probabilities, and not definitive proof. We are talking about centuries past as is palpably obvious, and so we’re reliant on what is known from contemporary images and regulations and then required to fill in the gaps with rational propositions. That is what I’ve done. Take it or leave it, you are invariably negative about anything you can’t find in a photograph so I expected nothing less from you and do not give a fig what you think.

I believe you are a master of what is known these days as "Word Salad". What you describe as filling in the gaps with rational propositions is no more than just making it up as you go along in my opinion. Mind you, as a former "Blinkered Collector" I suppose I don't know very much.

[manchesters]

Originally Posted by stenoyab

Here's a First Somerset Militia WBC with a Laurel on the outer ring.

The laurel spray is just a gap filler used on WBC's at the bottom where the Regimental title doesnt fill the circlet.

It can be found on English, Scottish and Irish WBC's for a fact and probably Welsh too.

The fact that in this instance it is on a Somerset WBC is purely coincidental.

best wishes

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Hoot

Mind you, as a former "Blinkered Collector" I suppose I don't know very much.

If the cap fits Hoot, if the cap fits. The two of you should form a club. Perhaps call it - The Society of Obtuse Fellows.