Para 4 & The Missing TF Economy Issues

[Luke H]

Since the joys of reading the Bent & Parker tender list dated 17th April 1916 (excellently researched by Julian) I was left puzzled by some of the TF badge orders in all GM i.e. so-called economy issue:

4th Dorsetshire Regiment (3,000)
4th & 5th East Lancashire Regiment (6,000)
4th & 5th Leicestershire Regiment (6,000)
7th-10th Middlesex Regiment (15,000)
4th & 5th Suffolk Regiment (9,000)

Simply put the above badges do not seem to exist despite the not insignificant quantities ordered.

N.B. I know Brian has a TF Middx which is made with overlaid GM parts but this seems to be more of an oddity

To date the TF badges I’m satisfied I’ve seen genuine 1916 all GM examples of are…

4th-8th Essex Regiment (8,000)
4th South Lancashire Regiment (4,000)
4th Northamptonshire Regiment (3,000)
Cambridgeshire Regiment (4,000)
23rd Bn London Regiment (5,000)

This caused me to suspect that the orders for the badges on the first list, were either 1. cancelled/unfulfilled or 2. destroyed en masse very comprehensively.

Today I was re-reading ACI 1338 - Supply of cap badges and shoulder titles to Territorial Force units (5th July 1916) when the wording of paragraph 4, which I now think offers the explanation, fully dawned on me:

4. Stocks of badges and titles held by T.F. Associations surplus to reasonable requirements for outfitting the recruits will be sent immediately to the Chief Ordnance Officer, Royal Army Clothing Department, Pimlico, S.W., and further surplus quantities delivered by contractors on existing contracts will be transferred to that Officer as soon as they are passed to the Associations Store.

So, if these missing TF economies were still on order or being manufactured in July 1916 it seems entirely conceivable that whole boxes of the completed orders once they arrived from the manufacturer were immediately sent unopened to the RACD. No doubt they were destroyed or binned. This could certainly account for this ‘no survivors’ situation.

[leigh kitchen]

"Thanks button".

[gb64]

Indeed thanks , great information

Gerard

[Alan O]

I fully agrre. The orders were probably cancelled or sent back from stores in Oct 16 when the TF badges were abolished and melted down.

[Luke H]

I can very easily envisage Territorial Associations on receipt of this order frantically trying to cancel any pending badge orders with manufacturers not least in the hope of a refund!

Any that were too far down the line or may have already arrived at stores but were as yet unopened due to existing stocks of BM badges still meeting needs of recruits I imagine were subsequently gathered up and sent to Pimlico as ordered.

[KLR]

It might be a similar case of the badges designed for the Service Dress Hat (ie slouch etc) in 1903.

The badges never got on to the hats! - but the whole lot was made obsolent.

[KLR]

Apart from the list (Dorset, E Lancs etc.......) you can add the following


4&5 Borders
Essex
Lancs Fus
Lincs
Nhants
SOMLI
5, 6, 7, 8, 9 HLI

(I'll type in the various metals later - tedious!)



All of these were cancelled dated throughout 1916 (February to November) - except 4&5 Suffolk cancelled in May 1917 and Nhants in July 1917.


I think I now know that there are two documents in TNA which might explain WHY these badges were cancelled.


enjoy
J

['Ticker' Riley]

Many thanks for posting this up Luke, which is most interesting indeed. It seems like you may well have cracked it! As you know, from our recent off-Forum correspondence, like you I have never come across a Leicesters all-gilding metal Territorials’ badge that I thought was genuine, unlike those for the regulars; of which I believe there are four makers’ variants. Anyhow, I do have a couple of things that I hope maybe you, or Julian, can clarify for me please?

Firstly, with regards to “ACI 138” I have a note about what appears to be this, which Graham Stewart posted up to the Forum some years ago, though I have it as “ACI 1338”, so could you please tell me which is the correct number? Also, for some reason, I don’t think I had the date of this, which you give as 5 July 1916, so am grateful for that. I believe that A.C.I. stood for Army Council Instruction, and this instruction was also the one that said the A.O.D. (Army Ordnance Department?) would henceforth “provide and supply cap badges and shoulder titles to the Territorial Force serving at home and overseas”. Furthermore, I see from my note that this mentioned an earlier “A.C.I 655 of 1916”, so do you happen to know what this was at all please?

Turning to the “the Bent & Parker tender list dated 17th April 1916”, which, as you point out was “excellently researched by Julian”, and published in the article he co-authored with the late David Linaker in The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society, Vol. 66, No. 262, November 2015, pp. 78-88. Although I recall seeing this figure of 6,000 all-gilding metals badges for the 4th & 5th Battalions of the Leicesters before, these don’t appear in the article, as far as I can see, so what is the exact source of this please? My understanding was that the badges of the Territorials would be dealt with in another article, Part 2, which I didn’t think had yet been published, or have I missed it? Perhaps Julian posted the details of this elsewhere, but either way I’d be glad to have them please.

With regards to the chronology here, just so I have things right, the production of the all-gilding metal badges was authorised on 29 February 1916, with, what we think was the first tender/order being placed by the War Office on 17 April 1916. But, as Julian’s article states “In the absence of any firm order to B&P or any surviving S&W archives, we cannot be sure what orders were finally placed with which company.” Whilst it is still not clear to me how the Territorials’ badges would fit into this, as, presumably their acquisition was still the responsibility of their various associations at this point, by 5 July 1916 the A.O.D. had taken over this provision and it had been stipulated that any surplus cap badges, or future surplus of such, held by the “T.F. Associations” should be sent to “the Chief Ordnance Officer, Royal Army Clothing Department, Pimlico”. Eventually the need for all-gilding metal badges was revoked on 28 April 1919, so three years after they came into being, though, according to the article some continued in wear in India at least until 1928.

Finally, in specific respect to the Leicesters’ all-gilding metal badges, i.e. those of the regulars’ battalions, re-reading Julian’s article it has dawned on me that it is highly likely one of the four makers’ variants I noted above is by Bent & Parker. Mind, I know their variant well, and out of the four there isn’t an exact match, though there is one that isn’t too dissimilar. Interestingly, for me at least, the variant in question does not appear as a bi-metal badge, like the other three do, only as an all-gilding metal one. So I do wonder if this is indeed the B&P one???

Best regards

Martin

[Luke H]

It should indeed read ACI 1338, a typo on my part now corrected, apologies.

The figures are Julian’s research, I’m very privileged and thankful to have been given a preview by him. Part 2 is still unfinished and unpublished.

Re your penultimate paragraph Julian is probably best placed to offer the best reply. I know he has a few ideas and irons in the fire research-wise but is at present very busy.

Bent and Parker may well be a manufacturer of one of your 1916 all GM tigers.

[KLR]

Part 2 is far far more complicated because there was no TF "centre" - you'd have to go to every county archive library. But there are a number of WO (and commercial tenders etc - eg B&P) lists etc in London.


I know I'm "late" with this one but I'll try my best to finish it off....


Although I'm retired I have loads of projects; Roman coins, Shakespearean playhouses, family history in the 1st WW, Greenwich history, let alone my KLR project - blah, blah, blah.

But "working" on projects keeps one sane .....



PS there has been a persistent story that other badge manufacturers' lists / tenders - for example the S&W lists is in the hands of a large company.


Gaunt archives in Bham and in London include J&Co and B&P

As for sealed Patterns - it is recognised that NAM has more than the IWM - though lots of the NAM holdings are also in Stevenage.


In fact I want to go back to Bham as there is a crucial KLR rubbing - I need to go back to Mus of Lpl some time.


Wearing is out footwear - in London and elsewhere


PS, yes 1338


I'll find time to write to you both

['Ticker' Riley]

Many thanks for the replies gentlemen, which I appreciate. To be frank Luke I compiled my response without logging into the Forum before hand, so it was only after posting things up did I see the images you’d attached, one of which clearly has “1338”, so thank you for clarifying this.

No worries Julian about being ‘late’ publishing Part 2 of your ‘Cap Badges of the First World War’, I do understand how you are busy with all your other research commitments, and how difficult it is to gather all the information together. It took me a number of years to get ’round to publishing some undergraduate work I did on a chap called Thomas Huet and his translation of the Book of Revelation, in fact it took nineteen years to appear in print! I also always meant to add details from relevant trade directories to my 2009 posting on the ‘The Board of Trade Labour Gazette: Lists of Contracts Awarded, 1914-1919’, which I really must do!!

Anyhow, I very much look forward to seeing things when they do appear in The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society. Though what Luke has put up seems to suggest the Territorials’ all-gilding metal badges, like that for the 4th & 5th Battalions of the Leicestershire Regiment, were also part of this War Office order of 17 April 1916. This strikes me odd, if the A.O.D. didn’t actually take over responsibility for the supply of cap badges from the T.F. Associations until 5 July 1916, so almost three months after the order/tender had been sent out??

As to the all-gilding metal makers’ variant that I thought could have been by Bent & Parker, I have been looking at it in greater detail and comparing it with examples of B&P badges, but now I think it is more dissimilar than similar! I also can’t find a B&P badge with the same kind of vertical shank/slider, which I know doesn’t necessarily mean that much but it would have helped if I could have found matching ones on both. So I am more inclined to think that B&P didn’t make an all-gilding metal Leicesters’ Territorials after all, despite the entry in their book, and that the one I thought could have been theirs was made by another manufacturer who didn’t produce a bi-metal version.

Best regards

Martin

[KLR]

It's fairly simple to find GM TF badges -

but TF badges generally are not v well made - different designs and different dates !!!!


I'll get through it asap

['Ticker' Riley]

Hi Julian

I’m sure you will get to the bottom of things, and, as I’ve said, I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labours when they are published. In the meantime could I please ask one specific question? You have previously kindly supplied me with the Pattern No. for the all-gilding metal version of the Leicestershire Regiment Territorials’ cap badge, which was 651A/1916, this later being revised to 8840/1916, but do you have precise dates for when these numbers were allocated/created please?

Best regards

Martin