Anodised badges with plain sliders

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I believe that if you have a Gurkha anodised badge with a blank slider , its very likely that it was made in Hong Kong.
Common Gurkha badges with blank sliders , Staff Band and Gurkha Transport Rgt

Hi Mike,

The same slider is also used on the Prince of Wales Own Regiment of Yorkshire and the Gilbert Islands Defense Force and probably many other non Gurkha badges.

There is no evidence except 'guessing' that the slider originates from Hong Kong.

Regards

Chris

[GriffMJ]

Rob

Any chance of taking a pic of the un-marked LDY AA

[Mike H]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Mike,

The same slider is also used on the Prince of Wallands Defense Force and probably many other non Gurkha badges.

There is no evidence except 'guessing' that the slider originates from Hong Kong.

Regards

Chris

I never said that the slider originated in Hong Kong. The badge was made in HK ,not nessarily the component parts.
If what youve said on numerous occasions Chris about blank slides being unofficial then a company was willing to supply them . From what ive gathered from my friend is it was easier to have the badges made in HK rather than wait for the MOD to supply them.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

I never said that the slider originated in Hong Kong. The badge was made in HK ,not nessarily the component parts.
If what youve said on numerous occasions Chris about blank slides being unofficial then a company was willing to supply them . From what ive gathered from my friend is it was easier to have the badges made in HK rather than wait for the MOD to supply them.

Mike,

Yes you did:

..its very likely that it was made in Hong Kong..

Since when was an A/A badge ever made of component parts and shipped to another country for assembly and then colour dyed and anodised which, of course is the process, in that order, of manufacture of an A/A cap badge.

Total BS Mike and by stating such rubbish all you are doing is, again, creating confusion within the collecting community.

I have never said that all blank slider badges were unofficial commissions. If you could ever be bothered to get hold of a copy of my book, and actually read it, you will see my full position on all slider types be them blank or otherwise.

Chris

[Mike H]

Chris. I wouldnt have a copy of your book if you gave it me free. As for BS where do you want me to start ?
Shall we begin with QOGTR ? Or the Welsh Guards Sgts and WOs ?

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

Chris. I wouldnt have a copy of your book if you gave it me free. As for BS where do you want me to start ?
Shall we begin with QOGTR ? Or the Welsh Guards Sgts and WOs ?

Thanks Mike,

What part of the QOGTR and Welsh Guards Sgts and WO's have I got wrong?

Regards

Chris

[Mike H]

The Gurkha is a hybrid,not genuine. But you insisted it was genuine.
The Welsh guards might exist as an nsn thats all. The regimental tailor is a nice guy to talk to,and the QM who both work at the museum.

Next one ,the RQMS at Southampton UOTC actually laughed and i quote "Where did you get that crap from "
Need me to elaborate more Chris?
Its a shame your so arrogant,rude and think you know everything. Unfortunately you dont !

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike H

The Gurkha is a hybrid,not genuine. But you insisted it was genuine.
The Welsh guards might exist as an nsn thats all. The regimental tailor is a nice guy to talk to,and the QM who both work at the museum.

Next one ,the RQMS at Southampton UOTC actually laughed and i quote "Where did you get that crap from "
Need me to elaborate more Chris?
Its a shame your so arrogant,rude and think you know everything. Unfortunately you dont !

Hi Mike,

First thing to note, as written in the Introduction chapter is that the book records those A/A cap badges that were officially authorised for issue. There is very little official info regarding issue of badges but where there is I have noted it in the text.

Getting that out of the way.

1. Gurkha is indeed hybrid with an A/A silver part and non A/A mount. Both the 'A/A' one and the 'New Metal' one, where maufactured by Gaunt, come from the same dies.

Authorisation for the badge was via 284th Army Dress Committee Meeting held on 13th January 1993.

Similar hybrid badges are both some of the Lowland Brigade and Highland Brigade and these are also noted in more modern doco re: 'New Metal' cap badges.

2. Welsh Guards cap badge as the Welsh Guards (Staff, Sergeants and Bandsmen) is recorded in the following documents (amonst others):

a) Guards Return - Brigade of Guards return of 18th November 1957, titled - Anodised Cap Badges no reference and held in file WO 32/16956 at the National Archives, Kew, London. There were 1,239 badges counted.

b) Cap Badge Prices - A letter titled Outstanding Badges A/A, dated 21st April 1966. Labelled 33A, file WO 32/20561, the National Archives, Kew, London.

c) and others.

The badge has lugs and an example is held by a member of this forum but unfortunately less the lugs. The site of them can still be seen though. There is also an example in the Guards Museum at Birdcage Walk. I have images that were kindly sent to me by the curator.

As well as the NSN (which you note) I also record the original CB no: (CB 3057). Unfortunately I do not have the Pattern No.

3. Southampton University - This badge was authorised via the
250th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, held on 20th May 1981, the Committee decided, via decision D. 3173, to approve the sample cap badge for wear by members of Southampton University OTC.

I also record in my book:

"...Although an unauthorised modification, the infantry platoon of the Southampton University OTC are believed to have broken off the dragon rampant, staff and banner component of this badge (see Chapter 20 - Classification Groups)..."

Note the word believed. I forget where I found this information and regret not noting it down. While such a practice my not today be carried out one has to remeber that the badge has been authorised since 1981. Was your RQMS at Southampton UOTC serving back then?

I am willing to answer and issues re: my book and any matter on the 360 A/A cap badges recorded within it. This include line regiments/corps, ACF/CCF, Royal Marine, and 'Possibles'.

Mike, a bit more research on your part into the hobby would go a lot better than the wild stories you constantly come up with with no evidence whatsoever to back them up. Some collectors take this hobby quite seriously and carry out extensive research into established libraries and museums using official documentation. Others rely on '...what this bloke down the pub said...'.

You, unfortunately, appear to fall into the latter category.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

By the way; the price of the Welsh Guards (Staff, Sergeants and Bandsmen) A/A cap badge was 1 shilling and 3 pennies each.

Thought I may throw that in while we were at it...

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

I also record in my book:

"...Although an unauthorised modification, the infantry platoon of the Southampton University OTC are believed to have broken off the dragon rampant, staff and banner component of this badge (see Chapter 20 - Classification Groups)..."

Note the word believed. I forget where I found this information and regret not noting it down. While such a practice my not today be carried out one has to remeber that the badge has been authorised since 1981. Was your RQMS at Southampton UOTC serving back then?

Chaps

I was in SUOTC in 1988-91 and this is a fact. The removal of the dragon was a common practice amongst the Infantry Platoon but entirley unofficial. I was in it so I know. If you would care to accompany me to 32 Carlton Place I can point out and name all of the members of the Infantry Platoon in 1990 and 1991 in the regtl photos. You will find the regtl photo from 1989 is at Curium in Cyprus, 1990 in Brecon, Wales and 1991 in Thetford. The OC of the Inf Pl was a Wessex Officer from Portsmouth, as any one else who was there will remmeber, went by the nickname of 'Gary Lager' due to his working class roots compared to the University students of Southamton. I hope this is enough evidence to substantiate what Chris has written about SUOTC.

I doubt the RQ was even in the Army then.


Alan

[Alan O]

As an aside if you look at the SUOTC photo from 1989 you will notice a number of different badges in wear:

1. The Cadetship Officers (pre-Commissioning at RMAS but who were guaranteed a Reg C in a Regt upon commissioning and who drew a cadetship salry whilst at University) wore 2Lt pips and Officers cap badges of the regt they were to join.

2. TA posts were generally filled by Wessex Regt Offrs and PSIs who wore Wessex badge. Regular Offrs and PSIs wore their own badges.

3. UOTC male cadets (and those University student 2Lts who had got a TA commission) wore SUOTC cap badges in a/a on blue berets. Badges broken or not depending upon personal preference.

4. UOTC females wore WRAC cap badges on green berets. Oddly these were overwhelmingly Officers No2 dress badges rather than a/a. Even odder a small number wore RCT badges in a/a.

The reason for this femal cadet cap badge perculiarity was not a unit distinction or anything like that. They should have been wearing WRAC badges in a/a but the NRPS SSgt who ran the stores (old duffer called Tim who had Korean war medals from his Natonal Service days) had run out of WRAC cap badges and cocked the order up for replacement cap badges. When he had initially run out he issued the girls with RCT cap badges from his store: as he was RCT himself he had a box of them. He then ordered the wrong NSN and got Officers badges but issued them anyway.

Post 1991 and the demise of the WRAC the girls all wore SUOTC cap badges on blue berets. Further cap badge irregualrities followed in about 1994 when SUOTC adopted the unofficial practice amongst some OTCs of the time of allowing the University students in receipt of Army Bursarys to wear the cap badge of their sponsor regts. initially this was on a/a but in later years they also wore officers embroidered beret badges.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

I also record in my book:

"...Although an unauthorised modification, the infantry platoon of the Southampton University OTC are believed to have broken off the dragon rampant, staff and banner component of this badge (see Chapter 20 - Classification Groups)..."

Note the word believed. I forget where I found this information and regret not noting it down. While such a practice my not today be carried out one has to remeber that the badge has been authorised since 1981. Was your RQMS at Southampton UOTC serving back then?

Chaps

I was in SUOTC in 1988-91 and this is a fact. The removal of the dragon was a common practice amongst the Infantry Platoon but entirley unofficial. I was in it so I know. If you would care to accompany me to 32 Carlton Place I can point out and name all of the members of the Infantry Platoon in 1990 and 1991 in the regtl photos. You will find the regtl photo from 1989 is at Curium in Cyprus, 1990 in Brecon, Wales and 1991 in Thetford. The OC of the Inf Pl was a Wessex Officer from Portsmouth, as any one else who was there will remmeber, went by the nickname of 'Gary Lager' due to his working class roots compared to the University students of Southamton. I hope this is enough evidence to substantiate what Chris has written about SUOTC.

I doubt the RQ was even in the Army then.


Alan

Thanks Alan,

May I use this reference in my notes? It would be very important, for me, to try and keep all this information together for future use.

Regards

Chris

[Alan O]

Chris

More than happy to use it as a reference. If you need any more details then PM me. I do have a photo of the SUOTC Inf platoon in 1990 and again in 1991 somewhere buried in the attic.

As I hope I have illustrated the UOTCs could adopt from very strange dress practices. I forgot to mention but if we required No2 dress the Wessex regt ORs tunics and trousers were worn. We were not issued No2 dress but drew it for certain events such as TA commissioning courses and funerals. As the UOTC did not hold No2 dress we used the Wessex regt's No2 dress with their buttons and collars with their Wyvern on. I did wear it once when we provided a burial party for one of the girls killed playing CivPop at Longmoor with RMAS in 1991. We wore SUOTC berets and badges with it.

Alan

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Chris

More than happy to use it as a reference. If you need any more details then PM me. I do have a photo of the SUOTC Inf platoon in 1990 and again in 1991 somewhere buried in the attic.

As I hope I have illustrated the UOTCs could adopt from very strange dress practices. I forgot to mention but if we required No2 dress the Wessex regt ORs tunics and trousers were worn. We were not issued No2 dress but drew it for certain events such as TA commissioning courses and funerals. As the UOTC did not hold No2 dress we used the Wessex regt buttons and collars with their Wyvern on. I did wear it once when we provided a burial party for one of the girls killed playing CivPop at Longmoor with RMAS in 1991. We wore SUOTC berets with it.

Alan

Thanks Alan,

I'll send you the page with the entry on for you to check over and correct as needed together with yourself and date as a further reference if that is OK.

Will keep in touch.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

Going back to the QOGTR.

While I remember the slider of the badge is also A/A giving two components out of three made of this material (not counting solder, colour dye and gilding).

As such, this hybrid badge is more A/A than any other material and therefore, in my opinion, needs to be recorded with other A/A cap badges.

Regards

Chris