AA badge dating Border Regt - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Paul Spellman · #1 18-01-15, 06:19 PM

Hi,
I believe some Regular Infantry Regts were issued AA badges in mid 1950's and was wondering if someone could tell me if this was also the case for the regular Border Regt Pre 1959, or was it only worn by 4th Territorial Bn and associated Cadets at a later period. I have included an image from the Journal of the Regt dated March 1954 which refers to the new badge design incorporating the St.Edwards crown and stating it would be some time before the new badge would be produced. I ask this because if AA badges were already in production that it would be reasonable to presume that the 'new crown' badge would be produced in AA.
Thanks
Paul

Alan O · #2 18-01-15, 06:21 PM

I can't confirm whether they came first but metal ones with the JR Gaunt London mark can be found with both a voided and solid centre.

Paul Spellman · #3 18-01-15, 06:25 PM

Thanks Alan
I have wandered if the W/M badges were private purchase (pri etc) because of the dislike of the Anodised version.
This if the AA version pre dates the W/M.
Paul

Mike H · #4 18-01-15, 06:55 PM

Well K and K quotes the sealed pattern date for the metal badge as 6th March 1956. I can't find any reference to a sealing date for the a/a version of the badge.

Paul Spellman · #5 18-01-15, 07:07 PM

Hi Mike,
KK does follow with 'also in Anodised' if this means the same date why make 2 different metal types of badge?
If someone does have the AA or W/m Pattern card or date for both types of badges it would prove very helpful.
Thanks
Paul

Mike H · #6 18-01-15, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Hi Mike,
KK does follow with 'also in Anodised' if this means the same date why make 2 different metal types of badge?
If someone does have the AA or W/m Pattern card or date for both types of badges it would prove very helpful.
Thanks
Paul

When the book quotes "also in anodised" i take it to mean the badge was also produced in anodised but Mr King never had access to the sealed pattern card so doesn't quote a date. Just that it was produced in anodised.

ukbrits · #7 18-01-15, 09:15 PM

Gents,
Pattern No 19335 "THE BORDER REGIMENT T.A" anodised cap badge has a sealing date of 08.05.1964. Hope this helps.
Colin

Paul Spellman · #8 18-01-15, 09:31 PM

Thankyou very much Colin,
That has surprised me, it makes the wearing of the anodised version for less than 3 years and by T.A. only.
Cheers
Paul

hagwalther · #9 19-01-15, 01:00 AM

Hi Guys,

The A/A Border Regiment cap badge, with St. Edward's Crown, CB 7657, was first authorised (together with the WM version, CB 7566) on the 31st Dec 1956 via List of Changes change C 7657.

However, a pattern card does exist dated 8th May 1964 as already stated.

However, the badge is also recorded in the Catalogue of Clothing and Necessaries (CCN) of 1963 where the W/M pattern is deemed to have been replaced by the A/A version together with, so I presume, the previous old pattern of CB 0331.

Regards

Chris

Paul Spellman · #10 19-01-15, 07:59 AM

Thanks Chris,
So there is a good possibilty that the 1st Bn actually wore the AA version,
Were the AA badges on a trial period ? and is that why a W/M version was also made.
By the way are these type of details in your book as although I do not specifically collect AA they do crop up with the Regt's /period I collect to. So may have to consider getting one
Paul

hagwalther · #11 19-01-15, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Spellman

Thanks Chris,
So there is a good possibilty that the 1st Bn actually wore the AA version,
Were the AA badges on a trial period ? and is that why a W/M version was also made.
By the way are these type of details in your book as although I do not specifically collect AA they do crop up with the Regt's /period I collect to. So may have to consider getting one
Paul

Hi Paul,

I take a very different approach to many others in collecting British Army cap badges in that I only respond to official documentation. In effect I only recognise anecdotal evidence if it is first backed up by the official position.

In my opinion you always need to know the official position about a badge before you can accurately move forward. Without the official position error and confusion reign supreme muddying the waters creating myth.

Yes, these previous post contains the sort of details in my book and a bit more to keep you going.

1. The badge was also recorded in an undated document but between others dated 10th August 1961 and 15th November 1961. The document is called:

Yeomanry Regiments in Order of Precedence,All with individual Regimental patterns of Dress, Badges and Buttons, Metal Shoulder Titles

This document is in the National Archives at Kew.

In it it records the Boarder Regiment cap badge as authorised to the 4th Battn.

2. The List of Changes doco usually gives three specific pieces of info regarding the specific change. One of the bits of info in this change (C 7657) is the sealing date of the badge involved. For this badge (and the WM version) the date is 6th March 1956 which reconciles with Kipling and King.

The other pattern date of 8th May 1964 is equally valid as actual examples of cards with this date are known to exist. Badges are often re-sealed for a variety of reasons and this may have occurred here. The pattern card has the following written as a description:

Badge ORGANISATION [ORGANIZATION added later in red] Cap
Border Regiment TA
Anodised Aluminium

In effect, the card for 1964 may have been sealed for the TA battn after the regulars had obtained the brigade badge perhaps? I say may have as I have no official info on this matter so I am guessing but it does seem quite possible.

As such, you could go down the track and say that the A/A badge was authorised (note that I have no idea whatsoever if the badge was issued let alone worn) to the Border Regiment on the 31st Dec 1956 after being first sealed on 6th March 1956.

re: other questions:

a) No idea why the WM version was authorised at the same time as I do not collect pre A/A badges and have never researched into this area.

b) There is anecdotal evidence that A/A badges were trialed before 1950 if I remember. There is some unofficial info re: this practice from 1947 and I actually do cover it in my book. However, I never found anything official about A/A cap badges proper until October 1951 when J. R. Gaunt & Son Limited is known to have supplied examples of anodised aluminium cap badges for the Royal Army Service Corps to the War Office. This info is in a Gaunt letter again held at Kew.

Info re: obtaining a copy of my book at:

www.aacapbadges.com

Regards

Chris

Paul Spellman · #12 19-01-15, 12:34 PM

Thanks again Chris,
I understand and agree with your position on the use official sources, life would be much easier if dates of issue were readily available, I know only a couple of dates of a few Rebadging parades when new Badges were officially issued through my own experience and other sources such as Journals etc.
Well I have a birthday coming up soon so your book will go on the list for my wife to surprise me (unfortunately she will not buy me a badge of any sort after a previous mistake)
Cheers
Paul