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  #1  
Old 04-09-10, 06:53 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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Default SEALED PATTERN CARD - KINGS REGT 1971

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-KINGS-REG...item2c56ec3f62

An interesting selaed pattern card for the kings dating from 1971 with an unseeded scroll. As far as I know this was made for Liverpool UOTC.
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File Type: jpg kings sealed pattern 1971 card.jpg (31.6 KB, 42 views)
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  #2  
Old 04-09-10, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-KINGS-REG...item2c56ec3f62

An interesting selaed pattern card for the kings dating from 1971 with an unseeded scroll. As far as I know this was made for Liverpool UOTC.
Hi Alan,

A member here on the forum picked it up.

It is though titled 'THE KINGS REGIMENT (LIVERPOOL)' even though I believe this unit completed service in 1958.

Regards

Chris
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  #3  
Old 04-09-10, 08:44 PM
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I am not sure when they merged with the Manchesters but the Regular Bn were wearing the Lancastrian brigdae badge following the 1958 reorganisations. The TA Bn were wearing the badge long after 1958. KLR may know when they stopped (following the 68-9 changes?).

Alan
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  #4  
Old 04-09-10, 09:47 PM
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They merged in 1958
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  #5  
Old 04-09-10, 09:58 PM
Neil M.ex14/20H.MAN A.C.F Neil M.ex14/20H.MAN A.C.F is offline
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Hi all its still worn to this day by the Liverpool Uni OTC
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  #6  
Old 04-09-10, 10:13 PM
bess55 bess55 is offline
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I think the oddity here gents is that perceived wisdom is that the Kings Regt would have had a seeded scroll and was disbanded some time before 1971. The anomilly being the date and the un seeded scroll of what appears to be a Liverpool OTC cap badge and not The Kings Regt. If it was for an existing TA unit at the time, surely this would be reflected on the card?
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Old 05-09-10, 04:48 AM
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Yes Bess,totally agree with you. The regular regt finished in 1958 and yet the card is dated 13 years after . Very strange .
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  #8  
Old 05-09-10, 07:19 AM
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Attached is a photo of a Liverpool University OTC beret and a female cadets cap both with examples of this badge on them.

P.B.
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File Type: jpg LUOTC.jpg (57.5 KB, 22 views)
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  #9  
Old 05-09-10, 08:25 AM
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Attached is a picture of the 5th Kings taken in 1965 and still wearing the cap and collar badges of the Kings Liverpool Regiment.

The battalion was "disbanded " in 1967 following the reorganisation of the reserve forces. The expression "disbanded" was used in the Order of Service for the laying up of the battalions colours on 12 March 1967.

P.B.
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File Type: jpg 5 Kings.jpg (85.4 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg 5 Kings 2.jpg (68.2 KB, 13 views)
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  #10  
Old 05-09-10, 08:42 PM
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There is indeed a problem around these badges and I'll share what I've found out so far - which I've discussed with a few other members already.

As Chris has pointed out, the AA cap badge was listed in the LoC in November 1951 but as a declaration of intent ! It was given the stock number CB 3083.

This item is indeed listed in the 1953 and 1959 editions of the CCN but crucially without a price - meaning that it did not yet exist. It was certainly therefore never worn by the regular King's Regiment (Liverpool). In fact an LoC emtry for May 1958 specifically states that 3083 was now restricted for use by 5th Bn and LU OTC only – again, obviously for reference to when it would be available !.

The first time it appeared in the CCN with a price was in 1963 and it must therefore have been available by then. But I cannot find any official reference to it's introduction or to any Sealed Pattern number !

As Peter has pointed out, it was worn by the 5th TA Bn, presumably from 1963 to 1967. The 5th Bn TA ceased to exist in that form in 1967 and from then on the King's badge was only worn by LU OTC.

This badge must have been the seeded variety - I'm only aware of examples by Gaunt and by Firmin. Chris has found references to unseeded badges (for another unit) being proposed in 1964 but only for production - involving a new Pattern - when existing stocks run out.
It seem to me that the 1971 Pattern was Sealed - and produced - for the OTC as they had run out of the earlier stocks.
So, why was it sealed for a unit that had ceased to exist 13 years before ???

A clue might lie in an annotation I found on the SP card of the King's Pattern 14312/1950 King's bi-metal badge (incidentally Sealed for the cap - and "other headwear") in the NAM. Curiously there is no note of obsolescence – as there often is on other official SP cards – but an note saying that this (BM one) was superseded by Pattern 20302/1971 – i.e. this AA unseeded badge.
(There is certainly some confusion in the CCN listings in editions of the 1970s – too complicated to go into now – that may also be a result.)

Without, or until I find more, evidence from the early 1960s – I can only suggest that it was a bureaucratic muddle !
If anyone has any information or suggestions, I’d be very grateful to know..

As for collar badges, the WO (to become the MoD in 1964) appears to have moved only very slowly ! A memo from June 1962 says that they still have 900 pairs of King’s Regt collar badges but they will sell them to the 5th Bn (as they were funded separately !).
In 1964 a new AA Kings collar badge4 was sealed for the 5th Bn.
So, Peter’s photograph comes from a fairly tight time span.
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