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  #1  
Old 22-07-21, 03:35 PM
hindoostan hindoostan is online now
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Default A rare badge or a fantasy badge???

Hi all,
Just aquired this badge, bought on my mobile so the picture was blurred and small. A strange badge with the Stafford knot surrounded by wreath of roses and thistles and shamrocks. The badge is struck from one piece of metal, not made up from different badges, it appears to have some age, the lugs are old and bent etc.
Not sure what to think?
John
The badge is cleaning up as white metal.
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  #2  
Old 22-07-21, 03:40 PM
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Post 1901, Staffordshire Constabulary/Police
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  #3  
Old 22-07-21, 03:47 PM
hindoostan hindoostan is online now
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Thanks Phil, should have looked for police etc, I wrongly assumed military when I saw the Crown. You don't know when this badge went out of use?

Cheers
John
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  #4  
Old 22-07-21, 03:49 PM
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1935 I believe.
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  #5  
Old 22-07-21, 03:55 PM
hindoostan hindoostan is online now
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As a follow up I just looked on Cedric Heys site, who I find is reasonably priced.
He states it is a post 1902 Kepi Badge, he sold his example off his internet site for £55!!

Thanks again,

John
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  #6  
Old 22-07-21, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindoostan View Post
As a follow up I just looked on Cedric Heys site, who I find is reasonably priced.
He states it is a post 1902 Kepi Badge, he sold his example off his internet site for £55!!

Thanks again,

John
Not the most reliable of dealers I’m afraid.

Mr Heys also claims this is a genuine double scroll Nelly (only the second he has had!)… it is of course not genuine, £450 only.

His ‘unusual’ RA is rather a broken moving wheel version which had lost its moving wheel, another steal at £20.

Last edited by Luke H; 30-07-21 at 04:03 PM.
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  #7  
Old 22-07-21, 04:24 PM
hindoostan hindoostan is online now
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Thanks for the heads up Luke. Cedric was sending out catalogues when I was 18, thats 50 years ago, so I assumed he knew his stuff. I have only bought the odd medal from him.
John
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  #8  
Old 30-07-21, 03:48 PM
Cedric Heys Cedric Heys is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
Not the most reliable of dealers I’m afraid.

Mr Heys also claims this is a genuine double scroll Nelly (only the second he has had!)… it is of course not genuine, £450 only.

His ‘unusual’ RA is rather a broken moving wheel version which had lost its moving wheel, another steal at £20.
I take objection to this thread. This person has been defamority to me in his comments and has also broken the copyright of my badge pictures. I will accept an apology from this knowledgeable gentleman otherwise I may take further proceedings.
I am surprised that the administrators have not picked up this thread.
Where are the feet on the lugs if it is modern badge?
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  #9  
Old 30-07-21, 03:48 PM
Cedric Heys Cedric Heys is offline
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I take objection to this thread. This person has been defamority to me in his comments and has also broken the copyright of my badge pictures. I will accept an apology from this knowledgeable gentleman otherwise I may take further proceedings.
I am surprised that the administrators have not picked up this thread.
Where are the feet on the lugs if it is modern badge?
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  #10  
Old 30-07-21, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric Heys View Post
I take objection to this thread. This person has been defamority to me in his comments and has also broken the copyright of my badge pictures. I will accept an apology from this knowledgeable gentleman otherwise I may take further proceedings.
I am surprised that the administrators have not picked up this thread.
Where are the feet on the lugs if it is modern badge?
I take objection to someone selling a fake for £450. There are clear difference between your badge and the genuine article. If you permit I can demonstrate using pictures. I’m afraid you are wrong and I’m correct re what I’ve stated about both badges - one is a clear common fake made from a die that did not exist pre-1970s and the other is a broken moving wheel Arry badge which has lost its wheel.

This has nothing to do with lugs your badge is from the incorrect die and clearly different to the original. Notwithstanding not all repros have footed loops.

I’ve removed the screenshots. I shall not apologise and would hope you’d remove the item concerned for sale now you know it to be fake and therefore claiming originality is far graver than any copyright issues.
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  #11  
Old 30-07-21, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke H View Post
I take objection to someone selling a fake for £450. There are clear difference between your badge and the genuine article. If you permit I can demonstrate using pictures. I’m afraid you are wrong and I’m correct re what I’ve stated about both badges - one is a clear common fake made from a die that did not exist pre-1970s and the other is a broken moving wheel Arry badge which has lost its wheel.

This has nothing to do with lugs your badge is from the incorrect die and clearly different to the original. Notwithstanding not all repros have footed loops.

I’ve removed the screenshots. I shall not apologise and would hope you’d remove the item concerned for sale now you know it to be fake and therefore claiming originality is far graver than any copyright issues.
Well said
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  #12  
Old 30-07-21, 07:56 PM
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The Badge in the opening post is as stated a police badge. It is illustrated in ‘Badges of Office, ‘An illustrated guide to the helmets and badges of the British Polce 1829-1989’ by MB Taylor and VL Wilkinson, Plate 24e for the Victorian version and Plate 32e for the above version.

Regarding the 19th hussars double scroll badge a period photo exists in the 1904 Dress regulations. It looks like this one sold by Bosleys:


https://portal-images.azureedge.net/...6c00d92e2e.jpg

There are many copies about that look like this:

https://portal-images.azureedge.net/...c700afaf23.jpg
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  #13  
Old 30-07-21, 08:08 PM
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That is indeed a genuine one in the first link Mike. Another was shown here on the forum https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...7&postcount=31

Note the square ends of the letters, particularly the shape of the X. The difference in the bracket thickness and shape, the scroll’s seeding, the elephants toe nails, the ridges in the trunk, the shape of the ears.

From correspondence with Peter Seaman, who sold his example at Bosley’s a few years ago now, meetings at MHS with Hugh King a list was drawn up and only 7 OR badges were known to exist.

The second link shows the Martin Marsh catalogue fake.

It does not take the eagle eyed to work out which camp this badge is in…

https://www.badgesoftheworld.com/ver...19th%20Hussars

Last edited by Luke H; 02-08-21 at 11:38 PM.
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  #14  
Old 30-07-21, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedric Heys View Post
I take objection to this thread. This person has been defamority to me in his comments and has also broken the copyright of my badge pictures. I will accept an apology from this knowledgeable gentleman otherwise I may take further proceedings.
I am surprised that the administrators have not picked up this thread.
Where are the feet on the lugs if it is modern badge?
Greetings Cedric, I do hope you can reconsider any action and perhaps allow Luke to explain regarding the 19H badges.
Perhaps Luke could edit his post regarding reliability? I would personally of course consider you reliable - (but not infallible-just like the rest of us!)
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  #15  
Old 31-07-21, 08:19 AM
altcar73 altcar73 is offline
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The start of this thread relates to a a genuine Staffordshire Police shako/cap badge and a perfectly legitimate discussion followed.

Then for some reason the thread is highjacked by "Luke H" who begins a personal attack on another forum member (Cedric Heys). Luke H then takes copyrighted material from a website belonging to Mr. Heys and posts it on this forum.

The rules of this forum are very clear:-

1. Do not post copyrighted material.

2. The forum is not a soap box for personal attacks on individuals or
businesses.

It is becoming very common for forum members to engage in "business bashing" by either naming the business and making derogatory comments or simply posting links to businesses without adverse comments. The first is totally unacceptable and cannot in any way be defended, the forum rules make this clear.

If Luke H has issues with an individual or business, then that should be dealt with via an email to the business or a PM. To seek to defame an individual publicly is not appropriate. If Luke H wishes to have a "fight" in court then that is his option - but in doing so he should not put the forum, or the very generous gent that runs it at risk.

Dave.

Last edited by altcar73; 31-07-21 at 08:33 AM.
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