17th AND 21st Lancers Victorian Plates

[Neibelungen]

This is a list of plates (based on Rowe's book) of officer's lance cap plates known to have an eletroformed copy in circulation.

(actually it would be easier to list those that don't)

5th (Royal Irish) :A (two patterns), B, C, F

9th C, D,E, F

12th B, C, D, E, F

16th D, E,

17th C (Wombwell plate), D (3 patterns), E, F

21st A, B, C, D

Bedfordshire Imp Yeomanry
City of London Imp Yeomanry (Rough Riders)
East Riding Yorkshire Imp Yeomanry
Lanarkshire Imp Yeomanry
Lincolnshire Imp Yeomanry


Reserve Regiment (2 patterns)

[Aerowallah]

"...to doubt your sincerity in your resolve to address this matter to a point of closure."

What exactly does that mean, Rob? I ask rhetorically, for I will rapidly bring my part in this thread to a "point of closure".

I thought I was repaying Mac the courtesy of his questions by answering him as helpfully as I could.

If I've typed too much it's because I find the culture of this hobby fascinating. This is my first exposure to British militaria and its collectors. I did not know of Mick Holtsby's existence until most of the way through this thread, long after Butler had possession of my pieces. I did not know of the wise men until fearful collectors told me that their blessing was needed before buying, not because any one was infallible, but because an auctioneer was a hedge to liquidating their piece in future now that objective proof was no longer practicable, reliable, or bankable. They none of them wanted their expensive purchases exposed to the kind of peer review that occurred here.

I am certain, after going the rounds on this thread, that if I had a letter from Mick Holtby--in addition to provenance letters and Roadshow DVD--that someone would still say (as someone PM'ed me, in fact) that Mick is not an expert, that he uses experts like Paul Skinner, and that I still need an auctioneer like Dixon Pickup (DNW) or Steve Bosley to bless this. So round and round I might have gone, but Butler did not want to give up the piece and it's not worth it to me to raise a stink now that it has been put in the catalogue.

As for plastiforming it has been dismissed out of hand by others I have talked to, and I am really not competent to interpret what I see. Nibelungen or anyone else who wishes to have that technical discussion here is free to do so. Don't spare my feelings, but don't call me a liar in this passive aggressive fashion if you wish me to respect the source.

With great relief I leave you to your hobby and your own due diligence.

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Aero
What a mine field this hobby is and many booby traps to get through.
From what I am told Czapka,s and Czapka plates are as big a problem as your going to find. Hence many a auction house will stay clear I have one I picked up before Christmas on its way back.
Don't Know what you know of Mick Holtby but he was RSM of the 17th/21st and then commissioned I believe he took up post of assistant Regimental secretary in 1993 and curator to the Museum. He lives and breaths the stuff and has for well over the last 20 years and well before while not an expert "who is?" He is an Authority on all things Regimental. I hope the source on Mick was not the same that told you I took my plates back?

Nibelungen is a master craftsman in the field of Military metal work, hes a very clever man, it was he who helped me with a few problems, I think he pointed out he does not do plastiforming but electro plating/forming unless their the same thing we just have different names. That said I have seen the electro type plates and once finished to high standard you could fool just about anyone.
I think this thread has been a learning curve ,but very much at your expense if the Auction house has decided to sell it then good luck, I like many others were trying to help.
I shall watch the auction with interest again good luck

Rgs Mac

[manchesters]

Just a note,

Dixon Pickup isnt an auctioneer, but he is someone I have discussed these plates with and, TRUST ME, dont ask him for an opinion as you would not like it!!

regards

[Aerowallah]

Thanks Simon, for your last rubbishing of the plate.

Dixon works for an auction house, and we already dealt with his "expert" opinion in posts 58, 69 and 71.

We remain in thrall of experts...

[mac mcconnell]

Hi Aero
Spoke to Mick Holtby today who would be happy to check over the plates if needed. . He knows Paul as a collector I have seen his collection on the Regimental web site its outstanding, but as Mick said he may use Pauls expertise from time to time but Mick is an authority in his own right. Strangely enough Mick helped me out on a sports medal I attained the other day from a former Bandsman.

Rgs Mac

[Jim Maclean]

I'm not familiar with electroforming. I would imagine that only single elements can be deposited and not alloys.

[Neibelungen]

" I would imagine that only single elements can be deposited and not alloys. "

You can plate some alloys, but your correct that the thickness of deposit required for electroforming makes the use of alloys nearly impossible.

Most electroforms are done in copper, nickel (mostly industrial), silver and occasional pure 24K gold. Copper is the easiest and more popular on a domestic level.
You can also do it in pure iron, and a number of Parisian street lamps and statues were done in this from the 1870's to the 1900's.

There a substantial amount of electroformed reproductions made by the British museum in the 1880's and often forms part of their loan collection (eg.. the Sutton Hoo hoard) for display in other museums.

[eastridinglancer]

New to this forum and was reading this thread - did it (the thread) reach a conclusion re the original post was a known pattern or not. I have been a collector for a long time and have a 17th in my collection (photos below) but it is one of these discussed patterns - so interested in the forums' opinions, particularly the assertion that the silver should not extend beyond the gilt back plate which in the below case it does ?? - I didn't follow the oxidation theory at all, re mottling - so any help here?: Ant collectors out there have a comparable I can check this with that has been authenticated?? or any further thoughts - FYI this plate is not for sale

[mac mcconnell]

Hi East Ridings

Do you have a picture of the rear as well please ?. I have a copy ,but it dose have differences to yours yours, so hard to tell.

Mac

[eastridinglancer]

Sure: here is the rear of the 17th Plate and a closeup of the pins (cut then bent over hit once or twice by chisel-like tool).

Would be interested in this detail on your comparable -

On the original plate photo it isn't obvious but the grey stuff surrounding the silver work is compacted fluff (especially round the leaves and covers some of the detail)- I picked (toothpick) some of this out of the skull eye orbits and nasal awhile ago find out what it was like underneath.

I dont have a foul weather cap but liked your sympathetic (and documented restoration). If you have time a photo of the feathers would be most appreciated - all mine are more modern replacements. Would like to see what the real deal looks like.

[mac mcconnell]

I like the patina of the rear, the fixing points are the same as mine but your plate rear is much smoother and cleaner which is a good thing.
Heres some pics of plumes.

There is a major difference between old and new the older ones are full bodied and often much shorta. A lot of the ones you see in America for sale have these massive curling plumes which look great but I believe they were made in India in the 70,s 80,s

Mac