R.N.A.S. Armoured Car badge

[RCN]

I have had these two cap badges for many many yrs, so they are not modern repros, but I am wondering if they are good?

I know the basic history of the Armoured car section of the RNAS -- just requesting members opinion(s) on these badges --

[RCN]

Here is the second RNAS badge - similar to the first example I illustrated in previous post, some differences will be noted between the two, also this example has maker on reverse tang --

Bryan

[RCN]

Here are the two examples side by side for comparison ----

[Alan O]

as these were not actually hat badges but were infact collars I think I can state that slidered ones are fakes.

[Voltigeur]

Gentlemen, I was reading this post and it got me searching. I found this.Itt shows the badge being worn.
Cheers
Jo
http://www.instgreatwar.com/userimages/tyrrellWA1.jpg
Captain Walter Alexander Tyrrell MC – died 9/6/1918
Alexander was born on 23rd August, 1898, the son of John Tyrrell, JP, and Jeanie Tyrrell (nee Todd) of Fairview Buildings, Crumlin Road, Belfast, and later “The Cairn”, Ballyholme, Bangor, and brother of Marcus, above. He attended Inst and the Belfast Municipal Technical Institution and served in the Royal Naval Air Squadron (Armoured Car Section) as a Petty Officer from 26th December 1914 to 24th November 1915. During this time, he spent 8 months in France and suffered an injury, when an armoured car crushed his foot. Subsequently he used a specially made boot.
Alexander was killed, at the age of 19.

[boots and saddles]

There you are Bryan, a learned opinion & pictures to back it up. which I would say has Alan O stating a fact. So they were at it away back, because yours don't look new.

[boots and saddles]

Bryan, Was thw Fleet air arm the same unit as the RNAS?

[sailorbear]

Originally Posted by boots and saddles

Bryan, Was thw Fleet air arm the same unit as the RNAS?

Hi, the answer is no, to give a brief history it went somethng like this! Early in WW1 the British Army formed the Royal Flying Corps (RFC), this then formed a naval section that later broke away and became the Royal Naval Air Service (RNAS). In 1918 the RFC and RNAS were amalglemated to form the Royal Air Force (RAF) a seperate armed service in its own right. Later when the navy realised it still required an air service it formed the Fleet Air Arm (FAA) which is still in existance today, the army also raised its own air unit in the form of the Army Air Corps (AAC). Today the term RNAS is still in use but now stands for Royal Naval Air Station and is used for all land based Fleet Air Arm airfilds (ie HMS Seahawk RNAS Culdrose and HMS Heron RNAS Yoevilton) The Royal Air Force now also post aircrew and ground crew to sea on Royal Navy aircraft carriers and wear a small anchor badge on the sleeve of their No 1 uniform.

Hope this is helpful

Regards Tony

[RCN]

Thanks for those responses mates. That photo is very interesting indeed, thanks for posting, too bad not all that well in focus but pretty obvious the collar badges are the armoured car badge. I have never seen the armoured car badge worn as collars.

I had a look in May: "The Flying Services The R.N.A.S." & here is what is quoted for the Armoured Car personnel badge:

" An oval metal badge, ensigned by a crown, depicting a Talbot armoured car; officer's collar badges of the Talbot car are known, as are slightly larger variants, in bronze & gilt, depicting a Lanchester armoured car. It is thought that officers on armoured car duty may have worn a bronze version of the standard cap badge"

does standard cap badge refer to an Armoured car cap badge, or the regular (bronze) RN officer cap badge? its not clear.

Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by boots and saddles

Bryan, Was thw Fleet air arm the same unit as the RNAS?

Further to, & to complement Tony's post ..............

The RNAS (altho not called RNAS at that time) came into being in 1912 as a Naval Wing to the RFC. It soon became known as the RNAS & was officially recognized as such in July 1914.

The RNAS amagamated with the RFC on 1 Apl 1918 to form the RAF. Thus the RN lost control of its flying wing & this almalgamation caused a fair amount of resentment in the RN. The RN was unable to regain control of its flying wing in the '20s which caused even more resentment, especially with RAF personnel on board Naval carriers carrying out air operations!
The RN began to regain control of some naval flying in 1924 & in 1925 AFO 2793 a badge was authorized for naval officers who had become qualified pilots. This was the Naval Pilot wings that has survived to present.

Finally, in 1937 shipborne aircraft & personnel were transferred to Admiralty control, & the FAA was "born", but the shore bases & stations remained.
under RAF control.

In 1938 direct recruiting for the FAA brought many more civilian qualified pilots into the FAA. These officers were not trained in the Seaman branch they could not be placed in Executive branch, & they could not command a ship, but they could command squadrons & air stations as the RN acquired control of them. By 2 WW the RN was in control of its own FAA & went into the war that way. It must have been quite a struggle tho in that interwar period.

Bryan

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by RCN

Thanks for those responses mates. That photo is very interesting indeed, thanks for posting, too bad not all that well in focus but

does standard cap badge refer to an Armoured car cap badge, or the regular (bronze) RN officer cap badge? its not clear.

Bryan

It refers to the usual RN badge. The oval one was only ever a collar badge but was misattributed to a cap by early collectors and this fallacy still exists today.

[bobbluesboy]

The WW1 Royal Navy Armoured Car Section mainly consisted of RNAS ratings who were usually Petty Officer and Chief Petty officer Mechanics with RND officers in command.If I was lookng for a "sleeper" medal group to the RND Armoured Car Section I would be looking for CPO and PO mechanic rates in the RNAS.When I used to pick up service records to the RND from the museum at RNAS Yeovilton they had a WW1 Armoured Car in the Museum and an RND officer dummy with the Armoured Car badge on,the curator said these were never issued,and looking back I think she meant as a cap badge,obviously there is a photograph of the collar badge.The Armoured Cars section served in some pretty out of the way places including the Eastern Front and I wonder if the badge was actually issued during WW1 or very near the end / peacetime before disbandment of the RND.A standard badge would be the standard RN officers bronze cap badge as worn by the RND officers in the trenches .
The RNAS pre WW2 suffered very heavily from being back of the Queue in budgets and also with quality of aircraft.This resulted in the use of Aircraft such as Skua,s,Swordfish,etc, which were designed for the flightdecks of the carriers then in service,these aircraft were hoplessly outclassed and it was only the skill of the aircrews which achieved results.Only later in the war with new carriers and better and longer flightdecks was it possible to bring potent aircraft into the air such as later mark Spitfires,etc.Bob

[RCN]

Originally Posted by bobbluesboy

The WW1 Royal Navy Armoured Car Section mainly consisted of RNAS ratings who were usually Petty Officer and Chief Petty officer Mechanics with RND officers in command.If I was looking for a "sleeper" medal group to the RND Armoured Car Section I would be looking for CPO and PO mechanic rates in the RNAS.Bob

yes Bob, I had one like that couple yrs back, had his SR but it gave only VictoryI or II, I think, no mention of any service in France but he must have been over as he had a trio. He was CPO Mechanic, RNAS, with a low F number, if memory does not fail me it was F770.

Bryan

[RCN]

Originally Posted by bobbluesboy

When I used to pick up service records to the RND from the museum at RNAS Yeovilton they had a WW1 Armoured Car in the Museum and an RND officer dummy with the Armoured Car badge on,the curator said these were never issued,and looking back I think she meant as a cap badge,obviously there is a photograph of the collar badge. Bob

Where was the badge Bob? was it worn as a Cap badge on that mannequin?

[RCN]

Originally Posted by bobbluesboy

A standard badge would be the standard RN officers bronze cap badge as worn by the RND officers in the trenches .
Bob

Would the Officer's bronze badge be this one Bob?

Bryan