Royal Naval Engine Room Artificer badge

[NorthStafford]

Some UK badges, believed to be very old, are in fact post 1920 or simply fakes due to one mm2 of blue silk.
So all RNAS or RNVR or RNR badges with blue jewel are obviously fakes as all 3services were disbanded in 1918.


Im not sure on this but wasn't RNVR were still active during WWII ?

[Alex Rice]

As far as I know the RNR & RNVR were still active. In WWII they stopped the practice of wearing cap badges with the letters RNR or RNV embroidered above the anchor and just wore std RN cap badges from 1939. In just about any group photos of WWII RN officers you can see the wavy and interwoven stripes of the RNR & RNVR officers.
Cheers,
Alex

[Paddy]

Alco

I've just checked the "Rank & Rate" book and there is no specific date for when the red jewel changed to blue. It states that "around 1920 the centre red jewel was replaced with a blue version". A few pages later it states that "in 1920, RNR officers were granted the same cap badge as RN officers". I think that therefore allows for a certain amount of overlap where RNR badges could have had a blue jewel, albeit a short time. I hope so as I have a RNR badge with a blue jewel and I don't think it is a fake. I also think that because there were so many different makers of these bullion hand embroidered badges it means that there is a lot of scope for blue jewelled RNR badges to have been manufactured. There is also an example in the book of an unofficial post 1920 RNV badge with a blue jewel and the statement versions with the RNV lettering were frequently worn as late as the second world war. Unfortunately as with other aspects of this hobby, although there is a reasonably firm date for the change, it looks like a certain amount of artistic licence was applied after that date.

Paddy

[alco]

Originally Posted by NorthStafford

Some UK badges, believed to be very old, are in fact post 1920 or simply fakes due to one mm2 of blue silk.
So all RNAS or RNVR or RNR badges with blue jewel are obviously fakes as all 3services were disbanded in 1918.


Im not sure on this but wasn't RNVR were still active during WWII ?

Ooops !
I was writing too quickly, I'm effraid ! the term 'disbanded' was not appropriate, indeed !
As I 'stand' on front of a specialists Board, I was obliged to review my sources (Cder W.E. MAY in Badges & Insignia of the British Armed Services) :

= RNAS was versed into the new RAF in 1918 - so exit the eagle/navy badge.

= For RNR & RNVR, these services obviously continued after WW1.
I only wanted to say that they lost their dedicated cap badges (with embroidered letters).
No mention of the exact date of this event in my source ; but the year 1921 is given for a reorganisation of the reserves.
One consequence of the new regulation was : <<In 1921 the special RNR buttons were abolished and officers were ordered to wear the ordinary buttons of the Royal Navy>>
So, 1921 would be appropriate to date the abolition of the lettered badges.

> finally, if the ~1920 blue jewel is not welcome on RNAS badge, it could be 'acceptable' on RNR/RNVR's ... I am Ok with Paddy's demonstration ...
>> BUT ::: for EXECUTIVE BRANCH ONLY !!!

By the way, to complicate the system, do not forget that the CIVIL BRANCHES badges were replaced by the executive cap badges (RN and reserves) in 1918 ! (this late date is the origin of my confusion )

>>> So, to follow the scheme, NO civil branch badge with blue jewel ?

(to note : I was not able to find a mention of the jewels colours in W.E. May's)

[alco]

Post illustrations from my collection (or docs storage !)

1= RNR Civil branch - red rubis ! (yes !!! ) gold crown + anchor
2= RN pre 1920 - red rubis
3= RN Civil branch (gold devices) but blue saphir
however seems to be a real one ...

4 L= RN artificer Civil branch ? with gold devices + rubis
4 R= RN artificer - standard devices on purple background
note the saphir !!!

not so easy, is not it ?

[RBJ MIlitaria]

Originally Posted by Alex Rice

Hi Steve
I've never seen this before, but the crown on the badge looks Victorian, which would tie in with when engine-room artificers were introduced in the RN. I 'googled' the motto 'Tubal Cain' and got lots of hits about the 'secret password of a freemason'. Apparently freemasonry was quite strong in the RN.
Cheers,
Alex

Tubal Cain was the "first artificer in metals" hence its use as a motto by tiffs and also the name of the bar in the Senior Rates mess HMS Sultan the Marine Engineering school in Gosport

[RBJ MIlitaria]

[QUOTE=Alex Rice;87577]Hi All
I believe the red embroidered cap badges were not necessarily for artificers. I think the official term was for 'Miscellaneous Ratings'. In other words, any rating below the rank of petty officer (who would wear a gold wire embroidered badge) who was not entitled to wear a cap with a cap tally for a particular ship or shore establishment.

I believe the correct term was "ratings not dressed as seaman" hence Artificers pre Petty Officer rank wore red badges on berets and caps (Iknow I did) and also Medical Assistants serving with commando units did on their green berets but this was not popular and you will see metal Junior rate badges being worn though not strictly coorrect

[DAVID B HOWELL]

Hi Paddy

The subject of a blue or red jewel as per E C Colemans book should be taken as a comment and further enquires should be explored I have yet to be convinced of his dates having collected RN items for over 40 years I have yet to find anything which substantiates these dates.

David

[Malcolm Davey]

Hi guys interesting tread this, i have this badge and wondered if you can tell me what rank it is as i know nothing about navy matters.

Cheers
Malc

[peter4447]

Petty Officer.

[Malcolm Davey]

Thanks Peter

Malc

[royston]

The badge is a blazer badge. Artificers have never worn arm badges, with the exception of Royal Naval Reserve Trawlers during the First World War, who wore a Stokers badge (three blade propeller) with RNR T underneath it.

Up until the end of the First World War, Engine Room Artificers wore a cap badge, without laurel leaves, rather like the modern Petty Officers cap badge, but with a gold anchor, gold trim to the crown and a purple backgound to the anchor, purple being the colour of the engineer until 1956

[royston]

Additional to the last. I should have mentioned that the Chief Petty Officers Cap Badge, until the First World War, was as todays Petty Officer's cap badge but with the Gold Crown and Anchor and purple background (Laurel leaves for CPOs were not introduced until 1922 when the confirmed Petty Officers wore the device previously worn by the CPO)

[alco]

Hi Royston
and many thanks for this good summary abt ERA badges : your informations are to be read in connection with the pictures on this post.

but is it possible to show your sources ?
this is because we have to precise some facts, in particular the dates of important changes :
- exchange of badge CPO=>PO .......)
- lost of RNR/RNV badges ...............) when exist, sources differ :1920/21/22?
- change of red jewel to blue saphir .)

also what sources to confirm these statements :
- gold anchor for ERA after 1918 (end of civil branches) ?
- engineer purple B/G until 1956 ? (in this case, a badge with post-53 crown ?)
- what are the light blue B/G seen on this forum. (and from what regulation ?)

I would like to say that, in this matter, we can not invent anything :
= normally everything about uniforms (& badges) has been written on official regulations (I said normally !)
= so we have to observe the reality : a real badge in collection or a good photo !
= read and seek into the available regulations to identify the badge ;
= as this is an ideal sketch, in a lot of cases, we have to make an interpolation between the regulations
> and this is the start of our troubles but also the occasion to share our informations ...

Hope to be able to transmit my feeling through my basic english !!!

Again thanks for your infos.
Alco

[royston]

Reference last.
The best information can be found in "Badges & Insignia of the British Armed Services" by May, Carmen & Tanner. Well out of print, mine cost second hand 15 years ago for £30.00, but you may be able to find one through the library. A massive section on RN.

Page 108 In 1920 When Petty Officers with four years seniority were given long jeckets (later one year) they were given the cap badge formally worn by the CPO, who now had a new badge with additional laurel leaves.

Engineers became part of the military list in 1915, and hence moved away from the all gold crown & gold anchor and also the officer's could now wear the "executive curl on their sleeve. I assume that this took some time, but no doubt the Chief ERA was reluctant to part with his "cherished purple background and so I doubt if these did not fade out until after the First World War. (page 108)

The rest of ht civil list "Pussers etc, moved to the military list in 1918.

The Engineer Officer's continued to wear the purple stripe between their rings until 1955, as did other non executive branch continue to wear their distinctive colours. After then only the medical / dental branches.

There were a number of specific badges for the RNVR during the 1WW and also thoughout the between war and post war periods for the RNR.

I have not worked out the red/ blue jewel yet, that's a new one on me.

If B/G means background, then in some light the purple background can look blue, I have one, but there was never (unless someone knows otherwise) a blue background to the badge.

Schoolmasters & instructors wore light blue between their rings until 1955.