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  #46  
Old 15-09-20, 11:18 PM
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Hi all

Here is a picture of a 1916 badge with turned down corners, snipped from eBay. Seller wants the fabulous sum of around 29 quid or so.

You can see the marks of the pliers or other tool used to produce this effect. I doubt that this was done by the badge maker.

Cheers
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  #47  
Old 16-09-20, 01:20 AM
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Hi all

Here are three pics to add to the on-going 1916 war badge story. The first one shows a small array of the variations that were produced by those with varying degrees of skill. Note the small silver "dangler" that I've spoken of but not shown before.

Also the vaulting of the Gaunt badge can be seen in the second pic while the third shows the flattened Gaunt back stamp.

Again, just an idea but this could have been from the trimming of a normal "sharp cornered" badge and the badge being placed on the backing plate. Any scarring on the backplate would be transferred to the back of the badge and, although Gaunt were a byword for precision, this modification wouldn't have called for a great level of detail.

The vaulting of the badge would result as would the blurring of the maker's mark.
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File Type: jpg ows1916lot.jpg (88.7 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg ows1916lot2.jpg (44.5 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg ows1916lot3.jpg (49.3 KB, 8 views)
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  #48  
Old 16-09-20, 08:23 AM
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Thanks, excellent info and pics.

My gilt one is actually sharp edged, but clearly vaulted, with each corner similarly vaulted, so looks purposefully done and not just bent from wear. Hard to see in the pic, but there you go

cheers, Tim
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  #49  
Old 16-09-20, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
Also the vaulting of the Gaunt badge can be seen in the second pic while the third shows the flattened Gaunt back stamp.

Again, just an idea but this could have been from the trimming of a normal "sharp cornered" badge and the badge being placed on the backing plate. Any scarring on the backplate would be transferred to the back of the badge and, although Gaunt were a byword for precision, this modification wouldn't have called for a great level of detail.

The vaulting of the badge would result as would the blurring of the maker's mark.
Thanks for posting the photos but I'm still not convinced.

The badge looks as if it has been held in a bench vice while two of the corners have been filed/ground. Cloth/padding would have been placed on one side of the vice to prevent damage/scratches to the 'face' of the badge but this would have caused 'slight' movements when filing.

This movement would have resulted in scratches/cuts on the rear and flattening/damage to the makers mark. Again , this is from personal experience .

The 'curve' on the corner held in the vice also appears larger/longer than the other two , possibly due to pressure exerted while filing.

The 'rounding' on the top of the badge seem to be flatter/angled , possibly due to difficulty with shaping due to pin placement.

I honestly don't think that this 'modification' was done by the manufactuer , if it had been , would it not have been done during the original 'pressing'/stamping process ........before the pin was attached ? Or would Gaunt have accepted numerous badges back and adjusted their process/dies to accomodate badges that had pin fittings ?

OK , these are only my opinion (no evidence) and as we all know .......

...... opinions are like a-holes , everyone has one !
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File Type: jpg Vice.jpg (69.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Corner 1.jpg (23.1 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Corner 2.jpg (36.7 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Corner 3.jpg (100.6 KB, 4 views)
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  #50  
Old 16-09-20, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
My gilt one is actually sharp edged, but clearly vaulted, with each corner similarly vaulted, so looks purposefully done and not just bent from wear. Hard to see in the pic, but there you go
I've seen numerous examples that were obviously 'home done' , with uneven bends (especially top one due to pin placement) and even with tool/plier marks.

It is always difficult to assess photos of badges (the lighting makes it look like the top corner is more angled than the other two) , so your 'hands on' description is much more reliable.

I agree that it doesn't look like it was "bent from wear" and that opens the probability that it was originally manufactured that way. As I said in my earlier post , I couldn't see Gaunt 'reshaping' original badges but I could see them making a new die to produce 'vaulted' badges if it was commercially viable. It would be a lot easier/quicker if this was done before the pin fittings were attached.


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  #51  
Old 16-09-20, 01:53 PM
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Hi Mike,

agree most of this is opinion and conjecture, but I personally want to have my opinions challenged, it's healthy, and when done in the right spirit, as it is here, a great way to get at least closer to the truth.

My opinion, and like you, not base on any demonstrable facts, is the badges, the ones clearly modified, and/or vaulted, were more likely done by skilled co-workers or local jewellers. Gaunt and Wylie may have made them this way, eventually, but I can't see them taking badges back and 'fixing' them, when I guess they were reasonably busy on other work during the war....

Cheers, Tim
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  #52  
Old 16-09-20, 02:01 PM
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I don’t know about anyone else, but personally I have found this thread to be highly informative. The ideas that have been bandied around and then debated have been extremely interesting and it is great that opinions that may differ from ones own have been respected and challenged perhaps, but in the correct spirit. I know an awful lot more now than I did before and that has to be good. Thank you Gentlemen.
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  #53  
Old 16-09-20, 04:57 PM
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Nice little précis:
http://munitionsbadges.weebly.com/the-time-line.html
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  #54  
Old 16-09-20, 11:54 PM
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Hi all

Really good to see some lively debate on this and I think that it is good that we can all learn from one another. Why should the cap and collar badge men have all the fun? Don't get me wrong, some of my best friends pursue them and I love to chat to them.

Frank, I'm very impressed by your skills with my pics and wish that I could do that.

Our dear old oak dining table looks so nice in that pic!

Any thoughts on those little 1916 badges? Some I've seen before but the "We Are Helping To Win" was of interest I felt.

The other one that appears as a Star of David my have a YMCA/ Munitions connection.

BTW, I have located a few Munitions Canteen badges that I'll illustrate now that I've worked out how the Windows 10 works with the camera!
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  #55  
Old 17-09-20, 12:06 AM
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Just an afterthought, but I suspect that the rounding was done before the catch and latch were fitted.

Also have you noticed that the numbering on these 1916 badges appears to be the same font as the SWBs? I used to have contact with a UK-based collector of SWBs and he had one that was in its original box that bore a Gaunt label. Actually one of my British issues may have this too.

While some SWBs are clearly numbered by someone punching the numbers separately (distant memories of metal work class....) some of the issues have the numbers clearly held in a matrix much as you would use a rubber stamp.

The 1916 badges display that same regularity in their numbering although I do see that one of mine appears to be a little uneven!

All this has now caused me to track down the shop who have the "round cornered" 1916 badge. He still had it and it will soon be all MINE!

Don't know if it's Wylie or Gaunt yet!
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  #56  
Old 17-09-20, 09:36 AM
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An example of "Extreme Vaulting" !
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  #57  
Old 17-09-20, 11:10 AM
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Hi Mike

Yikes, that IS extreme! One can always speculate as to the whys and wherefores of such a practice but maybe they felt that it made more of a statement and also didn't snag clothing,etc.

I sincerely doubt that Wylie or Gaunt did this but it is interesting to see that you have two examples that are very similar.....

What do they say about if an idea is good, someone else will follow suit? Actually, people also follow bad ideas too.......
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