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#1
04-04-09, 09:43 PM
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I think this is a copy, what do members think?
This badge was listed on Ebay (did not sell) and may be relisted? It is cliamed that it came from Bosley's?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=350180261588 The photo is not the best, but it has an authentic (?) strengthening strip to the neck of the flames. The lugs however look wrong and the braze looks like copper? The first "G" looks to have a fault in the center and from the rear the strike looks shallow? I've posted one below which I feel is Genuine! If this is a copy, they sure are going a long way to make them look real (IMO this seller has had far too many "Genuine Badges" which appear wonky, that have come from Bosleys (?) and look a little suspect, my opinion only  )!(I'll get a picture of the back on in a while, lost the light) Andy Last edited by 2747andy; 04-04-09 at 09:56 PM. 
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#2
04-04-09, 10:03 PM
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Don't doubt they come from auction though! Dave
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#3
04-04-09, 10:12 PM
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Dave,
thanks for quick reply, I'm sure seller thinks the badge is O.K. Not the first he'll have listed as genuine and from a good source(????????), I remember when he had just moved house and knew nothing about badges (?), now it seems to be his "Day Job" (IMO). 
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#4
05-04-09, 07:24 AM
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Whilst I dont comment on individual badges this does raise an issue that has been discussed here a number of times before.
Like Andy I am sure the vendor " is of the opinion" the item is genuine but that is not the point.Lew Shotton on his site says something on the lines that " even the most careful dealer can be caught out occassionally" Whilst it is possible to pick up a bargain on E bay once in a while ( as I am sure most of us have ),it seems relying on the fact that a badge might have passed through an auction house in the past is not a guarantee of its originality. I still have a problem with lots comprising large number of individual items being sold at auction and then being split up and sold on individually and although I appreciate that the purchaser is not doing anything wrong. I do wonder how in that situation the Auctioneer can be acting in the best interests of the vendor when the sum of the value of the idividual items is obviously much more than the hammer price of the lot. That leads on to the the thought as to whether the individual items in large lots get the same scrutiny when being catalogued as choice individual items. When the contents of the Grange Cavern Military Museum in Holywell were sold at Philips the Auctioneers in Chester in 1989 some of the lotting appears bizzare by todays standards. Lot 325 for example was described in the catalogue as" Victorian Helmet plates of the 4th Cheshire Rifle Volunteers,ditto of the 3rd V.B., belt buckles and other regimental badges-( a lot)" According to the notes I made at the time the lot included ( as well as the 2 officers helmet plates) a wbc of the 35th Cheshire RVC,a wbc of the Chester Volunteer Rifles and a Cross Belt Plate of the 2nd Cheshire Volunteer Rifles No wonder most of the lots were bought by dealers and surely each of those items was in my opinion worthy of being a seperate lot. The great thing is that today collectors have this Forum to seek opinions on individual items before spending their hard earned cash ,but ( as has been commented on here in the last week) some rubbish is still fetching large sums on internet auctions sites and the prices are being paid by some people you might expect to know better I suppose if a vendor on E bay offers a full money back guarantee then at least one has some redress. P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )”
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#5
05-04-09, 07:45 AM
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Hi Guys,
Not really for me to say as I know absolutely nothing about non anodised cap badges. BUT The design of those lugs looks just like the ones found on late model, anodised aluminium, Firmin badges. No doubt they are not made of aluminium but they may well have come from the same lug manufacturing equipment that the aluminium lugs were made from. I would live to see close up macro photos to check out machining marks as some of these marks are just like reading a book and tell so much re: cross usage of lugs between companies etc. Regards Chris
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#7
05-04-09, 08:13 PM
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Hi Andy,
Can you supply a photo angled like this. It was taken on a pocket digital 7 megapixel camera, natural light with the double marco and taken from about 3cms away. Note the mark to the top of the wire lug. Some other modern lug types have defined machine marks following the curve of the inside the lugs which are difficult to photograph but can be seen with a 20 power jewellers loop. Does yours have any of these? Regards Chris
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#9
05-04-09, 10:58 PM
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Any common die-flaws? Regards Chris
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#11
05-04-09, 11:05 PM
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Sounds like the one on eBay is a recent item then using 'modern' Firmin type lugs. Of course, we can't be certain unless we can actual compare in the hand with a lug similar to the anodised one that I posted but if I was a collector of badges like these I would leave it well alone. Regards, Chris
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#13
05-04-09, 11:40 PM
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Hi Andy,
My main collecting interest is German combat badges and Iron Crosses but we have the same sort of issues there as seems to have happened here but please remember that I know nothing about non-anodised British Army cap badges. In 1957 the West German government decided that those WWII German sevice personnel who had joined the modern armed forces were to be allowed to wear their combat awards albeit in a modernised form (i.e. no swastica) on their every day uniforms as was the norm while in combat during WWII. This resulted in a whole new range of awards being produced. As many of the original fixures tooling had been bombed to dust there immediately required the creation of a new range of hinges, pins and clasps to adher to the badge body to enable the awards to be worn on the uniforms. This hardware was similar to, but slightly different from, to the 1939-45 hardware but this did not stop the fakers using it on their wares. These days a '57 hardware can be easily spotted by a knowlegeable collector and the fake exposed without even looking at the obverse. A similar situation also appears to have occured here. Possibly the original lugs are no longer available nor the tooling to make them. Ripping old lugs from existing scrap badge won't work either as the badge body and lugs metal probably won't reconcile due to material differences or aging patterns. As such, (and I'm not talking particularly about this badge) reproductions are probably being churned out with lugs made by modern tooling as used in the anodised examples. The lugs may not be aluminium but the tooling was used during aluminium era and as such is post the era that badges like this were originally made in. The secret to identifying a dodgy German WWII combat badge is to understand the manufacturing processes involved in making originals and also to be able to identify the hardware used right down to individual manufacturing company level and this is the basis of many of my anodised aluminium threads on slider and lugs where I ask members here for help. I suspect that such skills are also required and need to be aquired in badges such as these. Regards Chris
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, the link takes you to the sellers badge not mine! - Andy
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