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Old 13-08-19, 06:36 PM
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KLR KLR is offline
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Default The poor old Liverpool Scottish are having a difficult time on certain internet sites

The badge in question is that introduced in 1908 for the new 10th Bn King’s. – ‘Superimposed on St Andrew’s cross, the White Horse of Hanover standing on ground l, and below this a scroll inscribed THE “KINGS” and below this two thistle sprays, the tops of which a scroll inscribed LIVERPOOL SCOTTISH, all in white metal.’

This was made in two pieces; the horse and THE “KINGS” scroll was brazed on to the saltire. It had two loops EW which could be stalked circles, D shaped, flat rounded and flat hexagonal. I was told the other day that a Lpl Sc “officer”s badge for sale which had ‘blades’ – which I’ve never seen before on a Scots badge ! It might work on a Glengarry but not on a bonnet or tam-o-shanter !
TF units had to fund their own insignia until 1915 when the War Office (belatedly) took over the design, production and procurement of all TA insignia to conform with regular insignia.
This particular badge now received the WO Pattern Number 603/1915 – although it was finally entered in the WO tenders on 9th February 1916.

There are a number of slight variations but before we should shed some of the madness;
First of all the bi-metal version – GM saltire and WM horse, purported to be an NCO’s badge. This is COMPLETE NONSENSE, it never existed and is a modern fantasy badge. I can assure you that there is no such thing in the War Office papers or in manufacturers archives.
Before we get down to details, we should also look at the difference between the two piece and the one piece badge. The three digit Patt No 603 was given to the new WO badges but they were renumbered over the next two years with a four digit number – again – to conform with regular insignia.
So, on the 12th of March 1917 the Liverpool Scottish badge received the new Pattern Number 9392/1917. This one was that made in one piece. This, largely to speed up manufacture – similar to the 1916 ‘all GM’ badges.
Another myth arose in that the two piece (all WM) badge was worn by NCOs and that the one piece badge was worn by Other Ranks. Again this is COMPLETE NONSENSE. There is some evidence that the two piece badges were still being made and in fact the one piece version appears to be scarcer than the two piece.
Many regimental badges had a design used by both officers and Other Ranks, some didn’t. However, an ‘officer quality’ badge would be cast rather than die struck. They were mostly made of solid silver though silver plated versions also exist. The silver ones of course had assay marks which gave the maker and date but there are many silver and silver plated badges which carry no assay marks.

There are also certain details that define officers’ badges as well as pipers’ badges and NCOs’ sporran badges (all of the same design).
1. The surface of the horse is stippled – whereas the basic OR badge had a smooth surface.
2. The junction of the two thistle sprays are tightly joined – whereas the basic OR badge had quite a gap between the sprays. Of course, differing dies provide different size and shape of gap. (I have noted 8 different dies so far)
The pipers’ and sporran badges were paid for privately so that the manufacturer added a small GM plaque / tablet on the reverse – usually Gaunt. (there was one of these tablets on the bladed badge (see above) and all ‘plated’ – all highly unlikely).
It is also thought that the chromium plated badges were worn by pipers– though this was almost certainly a private initiative on behalf of the wearer. (The 1939 Pattern Liverpool Irish pipers wore the normal badge but similarly plated ones also exist).

Under reorganisation the Liverpool Scottish left the King’s ‘family’ and moved into the Cameron Highlanders as ‘Liverpool Scottish (Queen’s Own Cameron Highlanders)’. Their new badge was Pattern 11246/1938. But that is a straightforward badge, silver for officers, otherwise WM and later in AA. This was obsolete in 1967 though cadets wore them thereafter.

In 1992 a new TAVR unit came into being - ‘V’ (The Liverpool Scottish) Coy, 5th/8th (Vol) Bn The King’s Regt’, Pattern 28136/1993. Now this one was made in ‘new metal’ – the successor of AA – but was based / copied the old 1908 pattern.
There are two HM silver (officer) ones 1992 and 1998, then there are 4 OR issues in NM – mostly made by LB&B. These badges have been seen on a well known internet auction site as 1st WW silver plated badges. COMPLETE IGNORANCE ..... or ? !
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Old 13-08-19, 07:14 PM
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grenadierguardsman grenadierguardsman is offline
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An interesting read KLR, nice work. Thanks button.
Leave to carry on Sir please.
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Old 13-08-19, 07:25 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Default Liverpool Scottish

Superb work, what can I say apart from congratulations . . !

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Old 14-08-19, 08:55 AM
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Chipper Chipper is offline
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Cheers, Tim
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Old 14-08-19, 10:10 PM
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hagwalther hagwalther is offline
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Hi Julian,

Nice write up.

Here are some images of the modern Liverpool Scottish badge as worn by V’ Company (The Liverpool Scottish) 5th/8th King’s.

The first badge shown with LB&B mark was commissioned by the unit in 1992 in anticipation of the 1993 approval to wear which was given on the 4th January of that year. In effect it is not 'official' issue but was most definitely worn.

This was followed by two further unofficial commissions but again, obviously worn. The first of these was in 1997 with three lugs as per the one shown. Also in 1997 a two lugged badge was issued.

The final and fourth badge was manufactured in September 1998 and is the only item that came from the official inventory. The NSN was: 8455-99-869-2575 and pattern No. 28136. This badge was made of nickle silver with a bright nickle plate and has a more shiny appearance to the previously used pieces. It was not maker marked but has the more usual three lugs. It was deleted from the inventory on 29th August 2017.

Julian, as you say, there were also two private purchase officer pieces but the offical designation of the badge was 'All Ranks'.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Liverpool Scottish Obverse.jpg (96.5 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg Liverpool Scottish Reverse.jpg (105.9 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Liverpool Scottish Mark.jpg (74.8 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg Final LS Obverse.jpg (117.0 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Final LS Reverse.jpg (105.5 KB, 25 views)
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Old 15-08-19, 05:44 AM
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KLR KLR is offline
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Thanks Chris, you kindly gave me the details of the NM badges a few years ago.
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Old 15-08-19, 04:24 PM
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Alan O Alan O is offline
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The Bi-metal fake is shown in Bloomers book on Scottish badges from the late 1960s so its a very early fake.
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Old 15-08-19, 05:38 PM
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Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
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I had an example in my collection at one time before I discovered it was spurious. I remember the seller well, I won’t say his name but he was the co author of a two volume standard work on badges. In his defence it was a very well made badge with some apparent age. It goes to show no one can know everything about the badges of every unit.

Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection

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