'Lambourne's' versus 'Lambourne & Co'

[Jelly Terror]

Rather than add further confusion to the 'Bodill Parker' thread currently running, I thought it might be an idea to post this small finding here on a separate board.

Please see here for the pertinent post by Luke H, in full:

Originally Posted by Luke H

...I vividly recall the robust debate around their name in WW1 (Lambourne’s or Lambourne & Co) and one member decrying all the ‘& Co’ marks as fake...

Thoughts welcome:

Lambourne.jpg

JT

[Luke H]

Member RSM I believe has found a date for change. I won’t steal his thunder as I believe he may be intending to publish this. Obviously there is nothing to say that once the name changed didn’t prevent the old name (and mark) being used.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Member RSM I believe has found a date for change. I won’t steal his thunder as I believe he may be intending to publish this. Obviously there is nothing to say that once the name changed didn’t prevent the old name (and mark) being used.

Look forward to any reply RSM may wish to make

Cheers,

JT

[KLR]

As my foe the damn 403 - I have posted the Lambourne regular KLR and the 5th Bn KLR badges in my album

two versions of both.














and now I'm stuck with this little 'photo

[RSM]

Thanks Luke for your integrity, much appreciated.
JT. Lambourne & Co changed their name half-way through WW1 to Lambourne's. However, as Luke stated, this does not help with dating their badges. All that can be said in general terms is that a badge marked Lambourne's is highly unlikely to be pre-1916, but a badge with Lambourne & Co can be any time between 1915-1917 (as per Ticker's research and sticking specifically to WO contract badges). This is possibly because the company had many Lambourne & Co stamped sliders sitting around and were using them up right until the end of their contracts. It seems at some stage approx. 1916 onwards a batch of freshly made Lambourne's sliders found their way into the workshops and were used in conjunction with the existing Lambourne & Co sliders, possibly explaining why we see the same dies, but the different MM's, on some of their badges.

[Luke H]

To keep the Lambourne fest going I had been meaning to show this badge for a while.

Firstly a tip of the hat is required to Colin Mathews for picture credits, his excellent photography and Steady The Buffs Militaria website.

It is often said a sure sign of a Lambourne & Co fake is lack of an underscore below the o. Whilst I agree this is broadly true I am of the opinion that it is not an absolute rule.

Herewith is a Lambourne & Co marked Royal Irish Fusiliers sans underscore which I am completely certain is genuine. Of note the o is still superscript unlike the fakes seen.

I’ve attached another RIF, again same die, same mark and style of slider etc. etc.. The quality of the badges and their construction is commensurate with Lambourne. I’d suggest coronet on the second badge is the original Lambourne one owing to the quality, or lack of.

[wardog]

Thoughts on Lambourne MM plaques on rear of badges? Non War Office ordered- Territorial or Yeomanry? If so- is that the same with some Gaunt plaques? Regards, Paul.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by KLR

As my foe the damn 403 - I have posted the Lambourne regular KLR and the 5th Bn KLR badges in my album

two versions of both.

Julian,

Thank you. I have tried to see the MMs on these badges' sliders, but am afraid the detail is not clear to me. Do they differ in some way from one another?

Regards,

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by RSM

Thanks Luke for your integrity, much appreciated.
JT. Lambourne & Co changed their name half-way through WW1 to Lambourne's. However, as Luke stated, this does not help with dating their badges. All that can be said in general terms is that a badge marked Lambourne's is highly unlikely to be pre-1916, but a badge with Lambourne & Co can be any time between 1915-1917 (as per Ticker's research and sticking specifically to WO contract badges). This is possibly because the company had many Lambourne & Co stamped sliders sitting around and were using them up right until the end of their contracts. It seems at some stage approx. 1916 onwards a batch of freshly made Lambourne's sliders found their way into the workshops and were used in conjunction with the existing Lambourne & Co sliders, possibly explaining why we see the same dies, but the different MM's, on some of their badges.

RSM,

Excellent stuff. Thank you.

Are you, at this time, able to cite the source(s) of your info relating to the company's name change, and why they did so?

Regards,

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Luke H

To keep the Lambourne fest going I had been meaning to show this badge for a while.

Firstly a tip of the hat is required to Colin Mathews for picture credits, his excellent photography and Steady The Buffs Militaria website.

It is often said a sure sign of a Lambourne & Co fake is lack of an underscore below the o. Whilst I agree this is broadly true I am of the opinion that it is not an absolute rule.

Herewith is a Lambourne & Co marked Royal Irish Fusiliers sans underscore which I am completely certain is genuine. Of note the o is still superscript unlike the fakes seen.

I’ve attached another RIF, again same die, same mark and style of slider etc. etc.. The quality of the badges and their construction is commensurate with Lambourne. I’d suggest coronet on the second badge is the original Lambourne one owing to the quality, or lack of.

Luke,

Thank for illustrating the no-underscore mark. I couldn't quite ascertain from your post whether or not the badge in the second photo also has the no-underscore 'O'? The mark is a little faint in the picture, and I wasn't sure from your explanation (my failing, not yours).

I see that the sliders on both are bevelled/chamfered on the obverse side. I cannot recall ever having seen this on other sliders. Is this exclusive to Lambourne, or is it present on other makers' sliders too?

Regards,

JT

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by wardog

Thoughts on Lambourne MM plaques on rear of badges? Non WD- Territorial or Yeomanry? If so- is that the same with some Gaunt plaques? Regards, Paul.

Paul,

This is one for the forum intelligentsia; afraid I cannot offer anything on this. My knowledge of Lambourne is embarrassingly limited.

Regards,

JT

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by wardog

Thoughts on Lambourne MM plaques on rear of badges? Non WD- Territorial or Yeomanry? If so- is that the same with some Gaunt plaques? Regards, Paul.

The Lambourne plaques do appear more on Yeomanry badges. If memory serves I’ve seen them on…

Berkshire Yeomanry
North Devon Hussars
Essex Yeomanry
Lovat Scouts (KK1500)
Warwickshire Yeomanry
Loyal Suffolk Hussars

I believe I’m yet to see one of their plates on an infantry, TF* or corps badge. That is aside from the officers gilt Royal Scots Fusiliers grenade shown by dubaiguy.

*forgot the TF battalion all WM Royal Scots and the Hertfordshire Regiment.

Why this is the case I cannot say. Lambourne were clearly not shy marking their wares. A great many sliders bear their name on presumably WO contracted badges. Conversely Gaunt who also utilised plaques at this time for non WO orders never mark sliders in WW1.

Perhaps worth noting that also a few Lambourne’s have a makers mark stamped directly into the reverse of the badge. Again it’s from the above list but only those which are die cast construction:

Berkshire Yeomanry
North Devon Hussars
Lovat Scouts (KK1948)

I would add that a Lambourne plaque was shown in another thread on a Royal Marines Light Infantry badge, however, this proved to be a bespoke sweetheart badge.

But after writing out all those observations Paul the real answer is, I’m sorry I don’t know.

[wardog]

Thanks Luke. I think your points on an Accrington Pals Gaunt plaque badge may be an indication that other badges that turn up with a Gaunt or Lambourne plaque could be pre WO issue orders placed by new service battalions or Territorial/Yeomanry. Regards, Paul.

[Luke H]

I think that inference can be drawn for Gaunt branding but I do not believe that same distinction necessarily applies to Lambourne. Some Lambourne plaques are found with the ‘Lambourne’s’ wording which should post date them 1916 i.e. after WO took over insignia orders from the TF associations.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Luke,

Thank for illustrating the no-underscore mark. I couldn't quite ascertain from your post whether or not the badge in the second photo also has the no-underscore 'O'? The mark is a little faint in the picture, and I wasn't sure from your explanation (my failing, not yours).

I see that the sliders on both are bevelled/chamfered on the obverse side. I cannot recall ever having seen this on other sliders. Is this exclusive to Lambourne, or is it present on other makers' sliders too?

Regards,

JT

Sorry JT, I missed this.

Here is another posted on the forum: https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...2&d=1461849779

There is at least one other regiments badge I’ve seen the same mark lacking the underscore but superscript o, however, I’m struggling to recall what it was and all my Lambourne’s are put away.

I believe you are correct in your observation on this unique style of slider, quite unusual, albeit Lambourne’s sliders do vary quite a bit so this doesn’t worry me as such. I don’t wonder if their nascent cap badge production line changed how they were making their sliders either experimenting or out of necessity utilising what material they had.

Edit: Found an Royal Engineers badge with this mark and similar slider. This may or may not be the one I was thinking about…