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  #1  
Old 15-10-12, 07:12 PM
Peter J
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Default Pagri Badges - Definition

Not wishing to hijack Ivan's thread here, I thought it might be worth opening a small spin-off thread.

Patently obvious to many no doubt, but I wonder how members would define a badge as being for the pagri? Would it purely be down to slider length (date of badge issue notwithstanding, of course)?

If not, then how would such a badge be identified if the slider was missing... would it be possible?

Is the example below be a pagri badge?:

RASC%20(1).jpgRASC%20(2).jpg

Cheers,

Peter

Last edited by Peter J; 15-10-12 at 07:23 PM.
  #2  
Old 15-10-12, 07:35 PM
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Good idea Peter, might help me out quite a bit!

Ivan
  #3  
Old 15-10-12, 07:41 PM
Peter J
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Originally Posted by badger123 View Post
Good idea Peter, might help me out quite a bit!

Ivan
If not, Ivan, I reckon you ought to get your blowtorch on it
  #4  
Old 15-10-12, 07:48 PM
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I don't have a blow torch, perhaps I should send it to Dave C for him to dispose of it in a bath of acid?

Ivan
  #5  
Old 15-10-12, 08:03 PM
Peter J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by badger123 View Post
I don't have a blow torch, perhaps I should send it to Dave C for him to dispose of it in a bath of acid?

Ivan

Arghhhh... don't mention acid!
  #6  
Old 15-10-12, 08:09 PM
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Dave said a similar thing, what is it about acid?
  #7  
Old 15-10-12, 11:46 PM
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Peter

an thought provoking topic, it will be interesting to see the responses.

These days I pay little attention to the fixing. I try to study photos from the period 1881 - 1922 which is the period that interests me and judge from that.

The badges worn on the white FSH are a little easier to ascertain, in most cases the full dress badges and the FSC badges were also approved for the FSH and I tend to see this born out with the full dress badges in use. I am not aware that the fittings at this time were in gereral, any different for the FSH than for the other headdress.

Later in 1903 we had the effort to try to use the HPC , glengarry grenades etc noted here in post # 9.

http://britishbadgeforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=25308

I think c. 1903 is where these long sliders begin to come in but I am more inclined to think that they were originally intended for the so called slouch hat.

With regard to the khaki FSH , although badges were expressly forbidden for wear I sometimes see un-official badges in wear and I get the feeling that regiments exercised a lot of freedom in what they unoficially wore in this headdress pre 1922.
  #8  
Old 16-10-12, 12:00 AM
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Do you mean 'puggaree', the strip of folded cloth around a Sun helmet, pith hat or bush hat? A 'pagri' is a turban...
  #9  
Old 16-10-12, 03:37 AM
Peter J
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John,

Many thanks for your reply.

I dare say my question is perhaps a little broad, simply aiming, as I am, at the somewhat general term we all tend casually to use here on the forum to describe these particular badges.

As you say, it will be interesting to see any reposnses that members may make.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SAS1,

Thanks also for your reply.

Without wishing to split hairs, my understanding is that the words 'pagri' and 'puggaree' mean one and the same thing, the former being a commonly used variant spelling of the latter, either of which can be used when referring to (as in this case) the thin scarf-like muslin band used on (for example) the FSH. The term 'puggaree' originating from the Hindi word, 'Pagri'.

But again, this is possibly splitting hairs, though certainly an interesting side-issue to the main point of how one might actually define the so-called pagri/puggaree badge

Thanks again, gents,

Peter.
  #10  
Old 16-10-12, 06:17 AM
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Hi Peter,

Having trouble dropping off mate, or do you work unsociable hours ??

Dave.

PS I was a stickler for writing ' Puggaree ' but quickly realised that it was easier and quicker to write ' Pagri ' and everyone knew what I meant ??

DC.

Last edited by davec2; 16-10-12 at 06:21 AM. Reason: PS
  #11  
Old 16-10-12, 07:45 AM
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I guess most collectors would think of one thing whichever term was used, but they are two distinctly different items, despite the fact a puggaree has its origins in the pagri. One is an item of headwear, often worn as a symbol of honour, the other an item that accompanies a piece of headgear, both with a lot of meaning behind the colours and number of folds.

I have RAF badges for both the puggaree and the pagri, again, two distinctly different items.
  #12  
Old 16-10-12, 08:21 AM
grumpy grumpy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
I guess most collectors would think of one thing whichever term was used, but they are two distinctly different items, despite the fact a puggaree has its origins in the pagri. One is an item of headwear, often worn as a symbol of honour, the other an item that accompanies a piece of headgear, both with a lot of meaning behind the colours and number of folds.

I have RAF badges for both the puggaree and the pagri, again, two distinctly different items.
Dangerous ground!

The usually accepted authority on Anglo-Indian is HOBSON JOBSON.

This gives Pagri as the "Hindi .. in the colloquial for a scarf of cotton or silk wound round the head in turban form, to protest the head from the sun ......
also spellings puggry, puggerie,pagari, puggaree, puckerie ...."


I think you need to substantiate your definition.

The OED does nothing to contradict the above.
  #13  
Old 16-10-12, 08:52 AM
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Hi gents,

I do not think anyone is disputing the definitions of Puggaree or Pagri, I for one am just saying that if I write Pagri badge, everyone knows what I am talking about, the expression serves it's purpose, to me anyway ?

Other examples for instance, how many people call a helmet back star, a helmet plate ? or rank stars, ' pips ', chevrons, ' stripes ' etc, etc, I know a member who hates the words pips and stripes but it doesn't stop people referring to them as such.

Dave.
  #14  
Old 16-10-12, 12:07 PM
Peter J
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So what about the RASC badge in the opening post, gents... is it a Pagri/Puggaree badge? If so, why, but if not, why not?

PJ
  #15  
Old 16-10-12, 12:13 PM
Artynut Artynut is offline
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Having "Broken Bread" at your table Dave, I've no wish to get into a contest with you but methinks you are bowing to the modern generation of texters and their abominable spelling habits! Personally, I never heard the word "Pagri" untill I joined this forum and always knew what the word "Puggaree" meant. Your argument re Pips and Stars, Chevrons and stripes are acceptable names for the articles in question but as SAS1 so rightly points out, a Pagri and a Puggaree are two distinctly different items. From your friend across the pond, DJ.
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