British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 09-01-08, 07:41 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

John, there are three distinctive types of Pattern 100042/1926, defined by differences to the hind legs, tail and mane. I believe these are manufacturers rather than chronological differences. Malc's one is what I have called Type 1; officer's S&G and bronze OSD are attested by Firmin and although I've never seen a bm one with any makers name, I would strongly suggest that it is a Firmin pattern. (My Type 2 has S&G, OSD and bm attested by Gaunts, Type 3 as yet anonymous).

Anyone should be able to do this by a close study of actual badges (as many samples as possible) and the documentary sources - easier in my case as I'm only studying one regiment. I admire those of you who collect / know about a much broader range than mine and it would be useful one day to compare data with other close studies.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 13-01-08, 01:52 PM
Malcolm Davey's Avatar
Malcolm Davey Malcolm Davey is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: The Shire
Posts: 1,608
Default King's ODS Pre and Post 1926

Here are my two osd badges for the King's, purely for reference.

Cheers
Malc

Last edited by Malcolm Davey; 12-04-08 at 10:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 17-01-08, 06:57 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default Kings Liverpools

Dear Saddle Tree Maker,

Very interesting display,
Can you please tell me what the the following are:

Centre helmet plate top row
The Large badge third down in the centre ( Liverpool Irish ? )
Liverpool Scottish badge second from right
The badge between the 8th V.B. cross belt plate and what looks like a Pouch badge on the second row.

I enclose some of the badges from my Kings Liverpool collection which might be of interest to you

Thanks
P.B.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF5566.jpg (94.6 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF4527.jpg (72.9 KB, 34 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF4529.jpg (52.8 KB, 30 views)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 17-01-08, 08:34 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Saddle,
interesting lot. I'll have a look in detail in a while but I'd be interested to know if you have any details of makers marks on this lot, thanks, Julian
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 17-01-08, 08:42 PM
Keith Blakeman's Avatar
Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Staring into space, just wishing I had a desk.
Posts: 2,950
Default

What a fabulous collection between the three of you (KLR included!).
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 18-01-08, 06:44 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default Liverpool items

Thanks Nigel,
You may not be aware but the Liverpool Scottish did not wear the blue cloth helmet so you 8th V.B. badge you have is probably a Glengarry badge.
I dont think the badge above the large Liverpool Irish item is a boss badge, its looks like the centre of an another ranks helmet plate of the 18th Lancs R.V.C/ 5th V.B. K.L.R.

P.B.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg img375.jpg (71.8 KB, 25 views)

Last edited by Peter Brydon; 18-01-08 at 06:54 PM. Reason: further information
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 19-01-08, 08:55 AM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default Museum of Liverool life

Hello Nigel,

You are right the Kings collection was part of the Museum of Liverpool Life at the Albert Dock. It was only opened (With a big fuss ) by Prince Charles in what seems like only a short time ago.

A new museum is being built and the existing one has been closed and the collection put into store temporarily. I understand that some parts of the collection are being displayed in temporary exhibitions at museums across Merseyside.

I thought Chavasses medals were at the Imperial War Museum (Clayton -illustration opposite page 183 )

One of my most interesting medals is the Victory medal awarded to 2/Lt. Geoffrey Dickson Chavasse commissioned into the 5th Kings and attached to the 6th Kings, he was I believe a cousin of the great man. Still looking for his BWM.

Have you been to the Liverpool Scottish Museum ( details on their website ) I would say it is the best and friendliest military museum I have been to.

Regards

Peter
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF5593.jpg (70.4 KB, 5 views)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 25-01-08, 06:23 PM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default Kings Liverpool WW1 cap

Tyneside,

I have just been looking on a dealers web site which I have not visited for some time and found the cap for sale which you posted the picture of.
I am in agreement with KLR about the badge on the cap.

I wonder if someone will pay £225 for the item in due course.

Peter

P.S. I bought at auction ,last year or the year before ,a Liverpool Scottish cross belt lacking the pouch badge but with what was supposed to be the original cross belt plate ( the famous 8th Scottish V.B badge which must be one of the most repro- ed badges about ) but I thought an old establised firm of auctioneers would know what was right and what was wrong
When the item came, you could see where the incorrect lugs had been removed and replaced with small bolts in the correct places so that the plate fitted correctly on the cross belt.

I was very pleased that I was able to get a refund from the auctioneers.

I see that a similar ( very very, in fact incredibly, similar ) item has just appeared on a well know E auction site.

What a minefield we have to negotiate in this hobby.

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 25-01-08, 10:31 PM
tynesideirish's Avatar
tynesideirish tynesideirish is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1,143
Default

I've since heard that that particular Military Antiques dealer has been flogging rubbish for years and has poor customer relations. I'm so glad my only interest was in passing on the info, sorry it turned out to be bogus!

There's some interesting 'Irish Kings' items on Evilbay at the moment but I'm not going after them. I'd be interested to know what you Kings collectors thought about them. Genuine?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 26-01-08, 08:10 AM
Peter Brydon's Avatar
Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Chester
Posts: 10,357
Default

The only item I am happy about is the part title IRISH/KINGS, I am sure I saw a T/8 for sale recently.If you could buy the 2 parts and get them profesionally joined together you might get one reasonable item.

I have a title T/8/IRISH LIVERPOOL in b/b and although there is a possiblity it was made up from Liverpool Irish and Liverpool Scottish titles, if it was, it is a very good job and was done many many years ago.

The post 1939 Liverpool Irish officers caubeen badge has been reproded almost as much as the 8th Scottish V.B. Cross Belt plate. It should be in silver or silver plate,with lugs, and any other ones , even with named sliders are at the very least suspicious in my opinion.
A hall marked silver example was sold by Bosleys in 1999 for £330 plus commision (h.m 1940)

I dont think any comment on the cast Liverpool Irish badge in one of the E bay shops is necessary
P.B.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF5762.JPG (55.4 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF5763.JPG (68.5 KB, 14 views)

Last edited by Peter Brydon; 26-01-08 at 08:16 AM. Reason: further thoughts
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 26-01-08, 11:33 AM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Following my comments in post 14 of this thread (and John M’s comments in post 15), I thought I’d share some of my research with fellow collectors. There are three types of the King’s “rocking horse” pattern cap badge; pattern 10042/1926 (sorry, I inadvertently added an extra nought in the earlier post) sealed on 15th Sept 1926 – K&K got the wrong date but I grant you, it probably didn’t reach units until 1927. (This pattern was officially superseded by Pattern 14312 on 13th April 1950. The new badge was similar to Type 2 but at ⅔ the size.)

There are three distinct types of this badge known, all quite common. The first two are just manufacturer’s variations though I suspect that Type 3 is slightly later.
Type 1 - straight legs / long tail; short mane. The bi-metal version has long and short sliders and I’ve never seen one without braze holes – though they come in different patterns. This type is also known in all (blackened) GM (5th Bn) and all WM (7th Bn). Officer’s S&G and bronze SD known by Firmins. I’ve never seen the bi-metal with a makers name but I assume they are also Firmin’s.

Type 2 - crooked legs / short tail; bushy mane. The bi-metal comes with and without braze holes. Also known in all [blackened] GM (5th Bn) and all WM (7th Bn). Officer’s S&G, bronze SD and the bi-metal all known by Gaunts (though Ludlow also made officer’s badges in this type).

Type 3 – straight legs / short tail; short mane. Only known in bi-metal and I’ve never seen one with braze holes or a makers name (well, possibly, I have some ideas which I’m pursuing). None known in all GM or all WM – which might also suggest that it is a late type.

If anyone has any further information on these types – particularly for Type 3, I’d be very grateful.
Julian
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0336small.jpg (31.4 KB, 175 views)

Last edited by KLR; 26-01-08 at 11:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 26-01-08, 11:33 PM
KLR's Avatar
KLR KLR is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 3,055
Default

Nigel, thanks for that. I know what you mean but I have a feeling Type 3 is real - but I'm happy to be proved wrong if necessary
However, anyone can take photographs (badly, in my case) of badges but what we really need is contemporary photographs of soldiers actually wearing them.
My research can really be divided into three parts;
studying as many of the actual badges that I can (often through the kindness of many collectors as well as eg museum collections)
studying the available documentary evidence, War Office records, Regimental records, makers records - and anything else
AND photographs, though in my case I will have to wait until the King's Regt museum in Liverpool reopens in ?2 years.
Julian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

mhs link

All times are GMT. The time now is 05:48 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.