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  #121  
Old 10-11-11, 12:55 AM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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The RDF badge mentioned in the previous post.
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File Type: jpg rdf pagri back.jpg (28.8 KB, 16 views)
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  #122  
Old 30-12-11, 08:15 PM
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ANGLE IRON ANGLE IRON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Totally agree with that sage advice, which chimes with my own experience. Here are some examples. Notice the distinctive 'V' shaped red pagri fold of the 'fighting fifth', Northumberland Fusiliers.
Toby ,Which is the flash bottom centre of the six helmets, regards Kevin
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  #123  
Old 02-01-12, 11:54 AM
grey brigade grey brigade is offline
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Default Pagri Badges

Good morning All

Please see my album of the Pagri Badges worn by the 25th London Cyclists in India during the 1st WW.

Top; Blue & Red (original)

Middle; Khaki & Red (faded)

Bottom; Red & Black

The top badge is the original, the middle 2 are originally blue and red
but the blue faded to Khaki in the sun a fact stated in the Regimental
History.


The bottom badge in the full title and I have included a photo of this being worn on the Pagri at the bottom of this picture.

I hope these images are OK

Mike
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  #124  
Old 02-01-12, 02:31 PM
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orasot orasot is offline
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Nice one Mike, the notes at the IWM state the red circle on blue was discontinued by Nov 1917 & replaced by the flash with the Battalion name on it, thanks for sharing,
Wilf.
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  #125  
Old 02-01-12, 04:17 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orasot View Post
Nice one Mike, the notes at the IWM state the red circle on blue was discontinued by Nov 1917 & replaced by the flash with the Battalion name on it, thanks for sharing,
Wilf.
Thanks for posting those Mike. I've recently been able to finally pair up my 25th London titles and these are of the cast brass with thin brass loops variety and appear to be Indian in origin.
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  #126  
Old 06-10-12, 06:50 PM
phaethon phaethon is offline
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Here is 1st Bn. RDF picture from India 1912.



Hacke is well "packed in". Also possible to see nice band's man badge on the right arm (with the RDF scroll).

__________________
I am always looking early (pre 1939) British ribbon bars with foreign awards; interesting devices or just different construction solutions. Also I am seeking Royal Dublin Fusiliers items. I can help in small scale to research RDF soldiers (MICs, medal rolls, additional information, etc).
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  #127  
Old 11-10-12, 09:21 PM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Originally Posted by ANGLE IRON View Post
Toby ,Which is the flash bottom centre of the six helmets, regards Kevin
I am sorry Kevin, I have lost my records relating to that helmet so I cannot give an accurate answer.
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  #128  
Old 12-10-12, 12:23 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Default Wearing of Hackles by Fusilier regiments in FSH

Timo

I thought you might find the following of interest

it appears as if the RDF started to wear hackles in the Foreign Service Helmet (FSH) in about 1903 when 1 RDF was based in Malta


WO32/6989, WO32/6990 & WO32/6991 are files in the National Archives that relate to the wearing of hackles in the FSH by fusilier regiments. All this debate was precipitated by the LF. The story is a bit long-winded and confusing but here is the outline of the situation.


The Lanc Fusiliers (LF) were authorized their raccoon skin headdress plume in 1901 (15 December)

On 9th Feb 1903 the LF were allowed to wear a hackle (called plumes in the correspondence) in the FSH by the war office. The authority was 61062/Infantry/787

This authorization was cancelled by the C in C on 24 April 1903

However OC 1 LF appealed the decision on the grounds that the battalion had already paid for the hackles (letter ref 61002/Infantry/903) and the C in C changes his mind and grants temporary permission on 15 /10/ 1903. He stated that once 1 Bn’s foreign tour (there were at Malta at the time) was up the hackles needed to be removed.

Now 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers were in the same brigade at the time and they too began to wear a hackle in their colours in the FSH . They were told to remove them as they were not authorized to wear them, O/C 1 RDF writes to authorities March 2nd 1904 asking for a decision about wearing their hackle in the FSH.

The RDF were ordered to stop wearing their hackle on 5 April 1904 (54/102/81).

OC 1 Bn RDF then writes to authorities stating that LF were accidentally granted permission to wear a hackle but the RDF were refused . He asks to be allowed permission as the LF have been allowed to wear a plume because of the expense incurred and 1RDF have also bought a stock at regimental expense.

2 May 1904, the permanent clothing committee considers the question of allowing all fusilier regiments to wear a hackle in the FSH with or without the authorized badge. They come out in favour of it.

9-March 1905 C in C Malta weights in saying he would ban plumes altogether but for the fact that the LF were authorized the hackle in 1903 & again in 1904. He is concerned that another fusilier battalion was ordered to stop wearing their hackle, he is concerned about the contradictory orders both on the grounds of non-uniformity and the fact that an English bn was allowed their hackle but an Irish one was refused the same distinction. He is concerned about the possibility of perceived favouritism or unequal treatment raising it's head.

C in C weighs in and rules against hackles (ACD/RF/565 & ACD/39/329). The decision to forbid hackles in the FSH was again re-iterated on 13 July 1905 (AD/Infantry/3783) and it is re-stated that 1 Bn Lanc Fusiliers must stop wearing them when the overseas tour is over.

Obviously this is not the end of the story as ultimately hackles appear to have been adopted by most if not all fusilier regiments, but it is where my research stops, for now.


John

Last edited by John Mulcahy; 05-04-13 at 12:06 AM. Reason: corrected some poor spelling.
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  #129  
Old 12-10-12, 05:54 PM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Timo

I thought you might find the following of interest

it appears as if the RDF started to wear hackles in the Foreigh Service Helmet in about 1903 when 1 RDF was based in Matla


WO32/6989, WO32/6990 & WO32/6991 are files in the National Archives that relate to the wearing of hackles in the FSH by fusilier regiments. All this debate was precipitated by the LF. The story is a bit long winded and confusing but here is the outline of the situation.


The Lanc Fusiliers (LF) were authorized their raccoon skin headdress plume in 1901 (15 December)

On 9th Feb 1903 the LF were allowed to wear a hackle (called plumes in the correspondence) in the FSH by the war office. The authority was 61062/Infantry/787

This authorization was cancelled by the C in C on 24 April 1903

However OC 1 LF appealed the decision on the grounds that the battalion had already paid for the hackles (letter ref 61002/Infantry/903) and the C in C changes his mind and grants temporary permission on 15 /10/ 1903. He stated that once 1 Bn’s foreign tour (there were at Malta at the time) was up the hackles needed to be removed.

Now 1st Royal Dublin Fusiliers were in the same brigade at the time and they too began to wear a hackle in their colours in the FSH . They were told to remove them as they were not authorized to wear them, O/C 1 RDF writes to authorities March 2nd 1904 asking for a decision about wearing their hackle in the FSH.

The RDF were ordered to stop wearing their hackle on 5 April 1904 (54/102/81).

OC 1 Bn RDF then writes to authorities stating that LF were accidentally granted permission to wear a hackle but the RDF were refused . He asks to be allowed permission as the LF have been allowed to wear a plume because of the expense incurred and 1RDF have also bought a stock at regimental expense.

2 May 1904, the permanent clothing committee considers the question of allowing all fusilier regiments to wear a hackle in the FSH with or without the authorized badge. They come out in favour of it.

9-March 1905 C in C Malta weights in saying he would ban plumes altogether but for the fact that the LF were authorized the hackle in 1903 & again in 1904. He is concerned that another fusilier battalion was ordered to stop wearing their hackle, he is concerned about the contradictory orders both on the grounds of non-uniformity and the fact that an English bn was allowed their hackle but an Irish one was refused the same distinction. He is concerned about the possibility of perceived favouritism or unequal treatment raising it's head.

C in C weighs in and rules against hackles (ACD/RF/565 & ACD/39/329). The decision to forbid hackles in the FSH was again re-iterated on 13 July 1905 (AD/Infantry/3783) and it is re-stated that 1 Bn Lanc Fusiliers must stop wearing them when the overseas tour is over.

Obviously this is not the end of the story as ultimately hackles appear to have been adopted by most if not all fusilier regiments, but it is where my research stops, for now.


John
Briliant stuff John and as an ex fusilier myself I could not help smiling. We do love our hackles/plumes and the fight for them is connected with the three original fusilier regiments' honour of being dressed as grenadiers, whereby they (all 3) wore a white hackle/plume. This honour was at various times lost (with changes of head dress) and then regained. Not unnaturally the later fusiliers also wanted a distinctive plume of their own.
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  #130  
Old 27-10-12, 12:59 PM
ncc ncc is offline
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Default gloucesters pagri

old notes from gloucesters' museum.throws some light on their badges.
it would seem that they possibly did wear slouch hat with helmet plate centre.
no idea how accurate it is.
Bob
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  #131  
Old 04-04-13, 10:43 PM
Charlie585 Charlie585 is offline
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 02:13 PM.
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