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  #31  
Old 16-10-12, 09:18 PM
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I see where you are going with this Brian.

How about its because someone wanted to cause confusion, arguments and speculation amongst a group of people in years to come?

Ivan
  #32  
Old 16-10-12, 09:27 PM
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Hi Ivan.

Yet again I agree with you.

How's life with you................too short for problems like this I think.

Regards
Brian
  #33  
Old 16-10-12, 09:59 PM
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I'm fine thanks Brian, hope your'e well too.

I suppose discussions about problems like this add to the knowledge we all seem to crave.

In years to come, I hope to have left a few mysteries for future generations to ponder on such as:

Who had this badge made and why?
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=24259

And who planted 5,000trees to form a woodland in the shape of a letter X and why?

Yep, life's too short for problems like this.........

Ivan
  #34  
Old 16-10-12, 11:09 PM
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One day, I'm going to find a HPC that doesn't really appeal to me and stick a four inch slider on it I won't say anything and then a few months later I'll ask if anyone knows why it was done what a jape ??

By the way Brian, I think you've just about covered it all in one swell move well done mate.

Dave.
  #35  
Old 16-10-12, 11:23 PM
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Dave, felicitations.

Thanks mate.

Long slider on a helmet plate....hmmm....now there's an idea.

Hope to see you at Stratford; if you are going, please let me know and your stick will make the journey to Warwickshire.

Regards
Brian
  #36  
Old 17-10-12, 12:28 AM
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I speculate that the badge originally posted was intended for wear in the Universal Service Dress headddress (terai or slouch hat), c. 1902-1904, the slider being able to fit the socket produced for that cap and which was also approved for the FSH.

I base this on the following: WO359/12 P120-121 records that on 5th Jan 1903, at a meeting in the pattern room of the RACD, the decision was taken that the same badge was to be worn on both the FSH, and the Universal Service Hat. The records of this meeting show that for cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a slider. Also with the fact that the socket for the slouch hat was, I believe, of a size to take this length of slider

In this case the FSH means the white FSH. So yes I think these sliders were approved for the FSH c. 1903 but also for the slouch hat. These slider lengths seem to have been abandoned shortly thereafter.

Now I know nothing about the ASC cap badge patterns so will not be wholly surprised if the pattern attached does not match the dates above.


John
  #37  
Old 17-10-12, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc View Post
i do like the sentence 'No badges,plumes, hackles or ornaments of any description are to be worn on the kharki helmet.'

we can take the dress regulations as gospel then.
Bob
Bob,

I don't think anything is gospel, but to be fair this example of rule breaking is in my opinion/experience very much the exception rather than the rule.

As an example, 1 RMF was stationed in Rangoon 1911-1914, moving to Poona in early 1915 and there are plenty of photos, a lot on the web, showing all ranks wearing a hackle and a metal "M Grenade F" badge on first a rectangular, and then a shamrock cloth backing in the khaki FSH.

In 1915 the battalion landed in Coventry , on their way to forming up in 29th Division fort he Dardanelles. There is well documented photographs of the battalion, most still in Indian khaki service dress with FSH's on arrival in Coventry but now the hackle, badge and backing are gone.

Perhaps they were conforming to regulation now that they were stationed at home and less able to exercise the freedom from regulations that seems to have been possible in Burma & India.

So the dress regs were certainly not followed as gospel but are still very valuable, with other sources for research.

John
  #38  
Old 17-10-12, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
I speculate that the badge originally posted was intended for wear in the Universal Service Dress headddress (terai or slouch hat), c. 1902-1904, the slider being able to fit the socket produced for that cap and which was also approved for the FSH.

I base this on the following: WO359/12 P120-121 records that on 5th Jan 1903, at a meeting in the pattern room of the RACD, the decision was taken that the same badge was to be worn on both the FSH, and the Universal Service Hat. The records of this meeting show that for cavalry the FSC badge was to be used, infantry regiments were to use their helmet plate centres, and both were to be fitted with a slider. Also with the fact that the socket for the slouch hat was, I believe, of a size to take this length of slider

In this case the FSH means the white FSH. So yes I think these sliders were approved for the FSH c. 1903 but also for the slouch hat. These slider lengths seem to have been abandoned shortly thereafter.

Now I know nothing about the ASC cap badge patterns so will not be wholly surprised if the pattern attached does not match the dates above.


John
The badge in the first post is a George the 6th RASC badge, issued between 1937 and 1947.
In the book "Badges & Insignia of the RASC, RCT & their predecessors" a GviR RASC badge (#3-24) is described as "A slightly larger badge, not voided with a long slider was worn with the pagri between wars".

Rgds,

Thomas.
  #39  
Old 17-10-12, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
The badge in the first post is a George the 6th RASC badge, issued between 1937 and 1947.
In the book "Badges & Insignia of the RASC, RCT & their predecessors" a GviR RASC badge (#3-24) is described as "A slightly larger badge, not voided with a long slider was worn with the pagri between wars".

Rgds,

Thomas.
Thanks Thomas

just goes to show what I know, I did not even look for the cypher! Wood for the trees and all that....

John
  #40  
Old 17-10-12, 05:48 AM
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Hello John,

I hope this finds you well over there ?

If you have trouble finding the wood ? how do you think we ' dumbos ' get on, we are dealing with forests

Hopefully the opening question has now been answered

Dave.
  #41  
Old 17-10-12, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SAS1 View Post
I dont know why it is 'Dangerous ground'!!! I was not pointing the finger, simply asking which was meant, as I know them as two different items. Yes, clearly you do, but most people do not.
Personally I have not heard of 'Hobson Jobson', You could always try to find it, it contains the wisdom of generations of Indians, Brits and Anglo-Indians. but I take a lead from the well known Indian RAF pilot Squadron Leader Mohinder Singh Pujji. He had joined the RAF amongst a group of trainees in 1940, and flew through the war, being known particularly for the fact that he always wore his turban, complete with RAF badge, even to the point of carrying a spare in the cockpit in case he was forced down. I corresponded at length with Pujji before his death, and raised many questions about the Turban and badge, and he was insistant it was a pagri or Dastar, the puggaree being the strip of cloth worn around the hat, often with a long train at the back. Being a distinguished Indian Sikh, I take his opinion. This may be Sikh usage, although you fail to say if he distinguished between the pagri and the puggaree, but there an awful lot of inhabitabants of India who are not Sikhs The OED has no definition for either pagri or puggaree, The Concise OED on my shelf has Puggaree, with pagri as an alternative, page 898, light turban or thin scarf but one force to still wear the puggaree is the Australians, and their website gives a definitive answer; http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/T...The-Slouch-Hat. The full turban is a pagri, the strip of cloth adapted from it for wear initially by the British, a puggaree. Saying so doesn't make it so, but I expect deep down you know you know, now.I have an example of the RAF puggaree flash, which is in three colours (dark blue, pale blue and maroon), and was worn on the 'Wolseley/Sun Helmet' (North Africa), 'Pith Hat' (India) and 'Bush Hat' (Far East). The RAF pagri badge, as worn by Pujji and others (in fact Pujji claims to have 'invented it, the RAF never having call for such a badge before) is a brass or gilt eagle and crown with a large spike fixing, worn to the front.

As for 'substantiating my definition', I refer to Royal Air Force Dress Regulations 1939 which state, '47. Hat, Pith (for officers serving in India) Khaki puggaree as for "Wolseley" pattern helmet but half the length and to be 5 folds... Flash fitted as on "Wolesley" pattern helmet.

Additionally, '48. Helmets. "Wolseley" pattern, cork, made with six seams, bound with buff leather...Khaki 3 fold puggaree 2 1/2 inches at each side. Flash worn vertically on the left side sewn down the centre of the puggaree; the flash is 3 1/8 inches in height and consists of dark blue 1 inch in width, light blue 3/16 inch and dark red 1 inch, reckoned from front of helmet.'

Hope that is enough of a substantiation? Clearly not, and there are several on this thread who agre with me.I dont have army dress regulations to hand, but personally doubt they would call the same item a pagri...
WHEN IN A HOLE, STOP DIGGING!
  #42  
Old 17-10-12, 09:29 AM
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I think the question has been answered so it is time to move on.
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