Royal Marine Bandmaster Cap Badge

[Paddy]

I recently purchased a set of 3 gilding metal Lyre badges as previously worn by the Royal Marines Band members as collar badges. 2 of the badges have N/S lugs which is what I have usually noticed with this type of badge but the 3rd one had E/W lugs. I know that Bandmasters at one time wore the Globe & Laurel badge with a large lyre above (separate) and from the pictures I've seen the lyre appears to be the same size as the collar badge. Given that this 3rd badge has E/W lugs could it have been used as the separate lyre for a Bandmasters cap badge? I have added a few pics with the lyre above a GM globe & laurel to demonstrate the sizes.

Paddy

[Ray6930]

Hi Paddy
Have sent your mock-up to a friend who is very knowledgeable on RM badges and particularly band related ones. Will let you know what comes back.
Ray

[Ray6930]

Paddy
Quoting the chap I mentioned:
Any officers would have had the regulation two piece cap badge (globe and separate crown/lion) The lyre cap badge was never split.
Looks as if your hopes are not fruitful mate.

As a matter of interest, I bought a commissioned band masters badge from him - a real beauty (pic attached)

Ray

[Paddy]

Ray

Many thanks for your efforts. If you look at the website at the following link (http://rm-badges.com/photos.php) and go down to the one labelled Bandmaster 2nd Class 1917 you will see one of the pictures I mentioned which clearly shows the G&L with a separate lyre above (I have also seen other pictures of Bandmasters with similar badges). I may have confused the issue by stating Bandmaster and your mate may have thought I meant it to be for an officer.

Many thanks again

Paddy

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Paddy
These were taken at the Royal Marines Museum, I had to crop them from a large picture and so they are not too clear.

John

[RCN]

Here is my contribution to this interesting badge:

This example I think is actually a collar a the lyre is smaller than the examples shown in prior posts.

The lyre is attached to the laurel around the globe & the globe not soldered afterwards.

Height is 1 3/4", width 1 1/2".

Bryan

I will show rev photo also.

[RCN]

I found the RM Photo very interesting on the site that Paddy submitted.

I also submit for consideration this photo of an RM Bandmaster wearing the badges worn at pre WWI period.

Note no lyre above the Globe & laurel cap badge. Lyres worn as collar badges.

He was Bandmaster of HMS Commonwealth from 1907-09, & I have his medal group.

Bryan

[Ray6930]

John / Paddy
Thanks for the picture / link respectively.
On the main picture John - did it list these as Bandmaster badges? Looks like gilt GL above and gilt/silver below, suggesting WO & Officer versions - which would fit with the bandmaster position perhaps?
I sent the photographs link to my friend and he is chuffed to bits - finds that picture a fascinating revelation as it blows a hole in the previous thoughts of society/senior collectors. I have no doubt he is now pouring over every picture in the library with a magnifying glass to see if he can scare up some more anomalies!
One debate he mentioned that you guys may have a view on - did RMA Other Ranks ever have small grenade collar badges (similar to fusilier shoulder title grenades)?
Yours Aye
Ray

[Sunray9]

Ray, if you have a look at the link above in Paddy's reply, scroll down to Private RMA, there's a photo of a RMA private with grenade collar dogs.

Ritchie.

[Ray6930]

Hi Ritchie
Yes - I have been pouring over those pictures.
Several with metal grenade collars - same size as cap badge (have heard the lugs were reversed on collars?), some with cloth/woven grenades and some with nothing. None though with the much smaller brass grenade.
One near end of the list (sgt RMA) seems to have a different collar but I cannot make it out).
Ray

[Paddy]

Ray & John

Many thanks for your input. Looking at the picture John posted there is quite a difference in the shape of the lyres when compared with the one I have, especially at the bottom. Looks like mine is just a manufacturers variation of a collar badge so I now have to look out for a couple of gilt lyres. I also need to pay a visit to the RM museum sometime to take some pictures.

Many thanks again

Paddy

[Paddy]

Ray

I've just looked at a couple of the pictures I have of RMA ORs and they all seem to be wearing the flaming grenade cap badge with the same design and size collar badges. Whether the lugs were positioned differently I don't know. I've also noticed that there are currently 2 RMA grenade badges in white metal for sale on ebay at the moment. I can't find any reference to them being worn in WM, any ideas?

Paddy

[Ray6930]

Hi Paddy
I noticed them as well. I do not think any of RM badges were done in W/M other than RMP. I have heard of officers having badges done in silver but they didn't wear that type of cap badge and they're not hallmarked.
Also seem to remember seeing RMLI, RMLC & KC badges in cheap white metal a couple of years ago but never seen RMA ones
Ray

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Paddy
I went to the Royal Marines Museum on Saturday and took a look again at their Royal Naval School of Music cap badges.
They do not have on display a Bandmaster 2nd class or Bandmaster 1st class which was a NCO rank with the large lyre as seen in the link to your post.
The two cap badges in my post are in silver and gilt but they are not listed as when they were worn. I think they are officers cap badges pre 1921 because of the size of the lyre.
In the book of A Life on the Ocean Wave by John Trendell the history of the Royal Marines Band Service.
He states NCO Bandmasters wore a two piece cap badge until 1921 when a new Band Service cap badge for all ranks was introduced 1921-46.
Which we know was a all in one cap badge with a large lyre 1st pattern in gilt for NCO's and brass for other ranks. And later a second pattern with a small lyre again in gilt for NCO's and brass for other ranks as seen in Bryan's post.
The 1st pattern cap badges in gilt and brass are on display at the museum but not the second pattern.
John Trendell also states that after 1921 officers and warrant officers and senior NCO's wore a cap badge with a lyre detached from the rest of the badge but the lyre was of smaller proportions to the lyre worn previously.
I had a look at the lyre collar badges in my collection and the lugs all run north -south and so I wouldn't write that lyre off just yet unless someone can tell us different.
John

[ANGLE IRON]

The Bulletin MHS ,Has an article with illustrations, vol XIX no76 may 69
here is my lyre ,lugs north south, am I right to say that this small rose is not a Royal Marine Item? Regards Kevin.