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#1
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Motto in a/a question
This question has probably already been addressed on the Forum, but I'll ask it anyway. Was the Motto in a/a ever actually worn by the 17th/21st Lancers, or did it only come in with the formation of The Queen's Royal Lancers? I see in K&K that the a/a version was sealed in 1961, but I've learned never to assume that it would have been adopted by the regiment. If the 17th/21st did wear it, roughly when did it start to appear? Thanks for any help.
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#2
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G'day Lettman
In short the answer is yes, the 17th/21st Lancers did wear an AA Motto before amalgamation in 1993 with the 16th/5th Lancers to form the Queens Royal Lancers. With out getting a large box of Mottoes out, I have the last pre amalgamation set in a plastic bag and the 1st post amalgamation set in another bag and they are by 2 different makers. These came direct from the Regiment. I will dig the bags out later and give you the full answer. Regards Phil. |
#3
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and G'day Lettman again.
Right Ive now sorted out the relevant packets of Mottoes from the shoe box. The last 17th/21st lancers AA Motto is by Gaunt and is marked JR GAUNT LONDON LTD on the slider, I received this from the museums curator and the note in the packet is dated 1993. The first QRL Motto has a red shadow and is marked FIRMIN LONDON and was received at the same time as the last 17th/21st as above. I also have AA Mottoes as follows. London Badge & Button Co Ltd, slider & ears. JR GAUNT B'HAM, slider & small ears. SMITH & WRIGHT LTD, slider bent up at an angle & small ears. JR GAUNT LONDON, lugs name on the back of the OR GLORY and a QRL Motto on a red shadow with a slider & ears, the slider has a small logo at the bottom that I cant decipher. I hope that this helps, Mac McConnell and Griff MJ may be able to add to the above. Regards Phil. |
#4
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That's fantastic information, Phil -- many thanks for going to all that trouble. From the list of makers and types would I be correct in assuming that the a/a Motto was in use by the 1960s?
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#5
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I served with a 17/21L sergeant in 1978-79, he confirmed to me that O.R.s in the regiment were issued anodised aluminium mottos but were instructed not to wear them but to buy and wear a chromed metal one.
He gave me this chromed one on 8/11/79. My JR Gaunt B'ham and Firmin London anod als were both aquired in 1985. Last edited by leigh kitchen; 10-03-19 at 08:10 AM. |
#6
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Its interesting how these regiments (unintentionally) "muddy the waters" for collectors by issuing an MoD approved badge to their staff, then tell them not to wear it, but to go and buy a chrome (unapproved ?) version and wear that. So, from a collectors point of view the chrome version is a repro?! So, presumably the A/A badges go in the bin. Whilst I appreciate that this went on in the 1970's, I'll wager that similar practices still go on to-day. More cash than common sense?
Dave. |
#7
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I would be of the opinion that any badge worn by a serving member of any regiment, whilst on duty, in uniform, is actually an original badge, notwithstanding where the serving member obtained it.
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#8
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I have a Welsh Guards yellow metal badge given to me by a 1 WG In 78/79, he told me that anod al badges were issued but......... that the "metal" one had to be purchased and worn.
A ex-member of 1st Bn Grenadier Guards who served in the early/ mid 70's was surprised when I showed him a GG anod al - he didn't know that they existed. He'd never seen the blackened "parkerised" yellow metal version of the badge having only worn the embroidered badge in Northern Ireland. Officially authorised or not, it looks like a chromed motto is what I'd need on a 17/21L beret or forage cap worn circa 1978/79. But what's the betting that another 17/21L veteran who served at that time will remember that anod al badges were worn? Last edited by leigh kitchen; 10-03-19 at 10:10 AM. |
#9
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Quote:
The small logo that you cant make out is 'SM in a box, which stands for SHAW MUNSTER (actually the Shaw Munster group). There are only a limited few regiments made by this company. Additionally you are quite correct that there are multiple variations of the motto, vide badge dies, sliders and maker marks. Griff will supply a more in depth explanation. Regards all Bess |
#10
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17/21L were in the next door to us in Munster during the mid 80s and I'm pretty sure that they wore AA mottos. Then in 89/90 at the training squadron in Catterick 17/21L recruits were definately issued with AA mottos.
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#11
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More info titbits to take note of.
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#12
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Hi Bess
Thanks for the info on the Shaw Munster logo, I will note this down for future reference. Regards Phil. |
#13
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motto
Frank couldn't agree more I still have my old very worn and repaired motto and always will have.
Mac |
#14
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Recruits at the Guards Depot had to buy 'metal' badges from the PRI, certainly up until 1990.
Chris |
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