The Kings (Liverpool) Opinions Welcome

[Neil s]

First pattern
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Second with beret followed by plastic economy and A/A
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Various O/R collars to suit first pattern
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Officer OSD collars to suit first pattern second looks to have been three lugged
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[Neil s]

O/R collars to suit second pattern
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Officers Second pattern OSD followed By Silver/Gilt (plate)
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Shoulders
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5bn
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6bn
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[Neil s]

7bn
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8bn Irish the second badges slider has been broken and repaired the title seems to have cut out in the way that many T titles for the corps were
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9bn
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[Neil s]

10bn Scottish Don't know about these badges all seem a bit iffy
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this was in the bottom of a shoebox full of badges dosn't seem to have any attachments apart from the glue all over it's reverse
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[Neil s]

The second badge is w/m third g/m with the exception of the fourth hallmarked silver one which has an attachment for a safety chain? they all came in various mixed lots so I have no high expectations
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[KLR]

crikey, it'll take me a while to go through these! I won't comment on collar badgs or shoulder titles !

Anyway, I hope I have the illustrations in order
here goes

FIRST PATTERN (aka Pattern 4326/1896 made / worn up to 1926 - many variations during the 1st WW)
Feathery tail – mid 1st WW
Early type (but continued to 1stWW

2nd Patt 110042/1926 – worn up to March 1950) with “BERET” (Pattern 14312/1950 0bsolete March 1963) – it was worn on all headgear,’ beret’ a nonsense but probably named becauise beretes v common wear. Plastic appeared 1943-45
Three types of of 1926 Pattern
Your first is what I call 1926/1B – prominent forelock is scarce
Well, well this is an unmarked Smith & Wright 1950 badge

VAR OR FIRST COLLARS
Dated 1895 – 1926,
“tab” is extended from feet probably early

OSD collars
1902---- basic types, none named (1st possibly J&Co

OR COLLARS TO SUIT
1926 collars

Offr 2nd Patt (ie 10042/1926)
Worn 1926 OSD, Gaunt
Collars
ST – NO COMMENT

6TH RIFLE BN
cap (1908-37)
Ditto collar

8TH IRISH BN
Thin 1939 officer pattern but a bit dubious (curious slider / replacement?) 1950s-early 60s
Pattern 11390/1939 – worn up to 1964, Firmin
AA Dowler, Pattern worn only 1964 to 1967

LIVERPOOL SCOTTISH
One piece 1917-1937 OR
Two piece 1908-37 OR
NCO sporran badge – 1908-37
Small horse – presumably from the centre of the glengarry badge, never been certain of this thing!

1. LIVERPOOL PALS
1914 Pattern as a presentation 1914 – dubious.
If GM possibly OK but if purported GM – slightly OK but “silver” =dud!
(BTW – all Lpl Pals OR badges had a “bronzed” patina.
Last one finally – Yes genuine silver ! made by Elkington 1914 but converted into a brooch.

[Luke H]

The first badge you show is the type discussed here...
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ight=Liverpool not one I’d want in my collection.

Second is cast copy from a genuine badge. Not one I’d buy as an original despite it appearing to have some age to it.

Your third badge is the common toucan fake.

Fourth is as Julian says a genuine Elkington badge.

[KLR]

Not sure which badge you are thinking of.... the 1896 Pattern (definitely genuine)
or the Lpl Pals - - yes the first 3 badges
(not sure about a toucan!?)

[Peter Brydon]

Regarding the Liverpool Irish "officers" badge, I am of the opinion that all die struck examples are duds. What I consider to be genuine examples are shown in this thread:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ad.php?t=80796

I have never seen the design of badge worn by anyone other than an officer and if the die struck examples are genuine officers badges then there were more officers in the Liverpool Irish than in any other British battalion.

P.B.

[Frank Kelley]

I would not want any of those, the Elkington badges are not difficult to find in their original condition, although, the example in this thread is not without significant value, but, would certainly be better had it been engraved with the name of it's recipient or have been otherwise attributable as part of a group.

Originally Posted by Luke H

The first badge you show is the type discussed here...
https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ight=Liverpool not one I’d want in my collection.

Second is cast copy from a genuine badge. Not one I’d buy as an original despite it appearing to have some age to it.

Your third badge is the common toucan fake.

Fourth is as Julian says a genuine Elkington badge.

Originally Posted by KLR

Not sure which badge you are thinking of.... the 1896 Pattern (definitely genuine)
or the Lpl Pals - - yes the first 3 badges
(not sure about a toucan!?)

[KLR]

I agree that there are hundreds of copies of the die struck 8th Bn badges.
However, I bought mine from a military tailors off Williamson Square in Liverpool in the late 1960s. They had a box of them, wrapped in tissue.
It is thought that in 1967 when the Lpl Irish disappeared - these badges were offloaded by Gaunt !

The large Gaunt font however, is known on other genuine badges (of whatever regiment).


Here are mine - though I have a new one now (not in the shot) - courtesy of Peter
As usual, apologies for poor photography

[Peter Brydon]

Regarding Franks post, since for various reasons I am in the process of disposing of the bulk of collection, my interest in badges, uniforms and soldiers of the Kings Liverpool’s remains undiminished and I have come to the conclusion that we ought to be pleased to be the current guardians of any genuine badge irrespective of its quality. We ought to remember the sacrifices of those who wore the badges.

I am surprised that we see so few badges that show signs of being polished . Additionally when I first started collecting I cannot recall many badges with named sliders, you can draw your own conclusions why there are so many about today.

P.B.

[manchesters]

Can I just ask KLR (or others) which pattern this one is please?

It will be for sale

regards

[KLR]

This is Pattern 14312/1950 authorised in the spring of 1950 (I have the exact date somewhere). There is a large WO file at the National Archives about the introduction of this “smaller” badge. The erroneous notion of it being a “beret badge” – is probably because the beret was the most worn berets – however, the badge was worn on all headgear !
On 22nd May 1958 (amalgamation of the Kings & manchesters) the 1950 BM Pattern was restricted for use by 5th Bn Kings and LU OTC. The BM was made obsolete in the 1963 CCN at the same time as the introduction of the AA badge (the next version of the AA badge was in 1971 – then it gets too modern for me….)

The only BM 1950 dies that I know of are from Firmin, Gaunt (yours) and Smith & Wright.
(There are also WM versions worn as Walking Out badges)

[manchesters]

Thank you Julian for that comprehensive explanation.

Much appreciated.

regards