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  #1  
Old 24-05-21, 01:07 PM
kaiserwilhelm2 kaiserwilhelm2 is offline
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Default 2 Fighting Irish Infantry badges: Royal Irish Rifles and Connaught Rangers

Gentlemen,

Here you will find two badges of Irish infantry regiments: The Royal Irish Rifles and Connaught Rangers. Both are hopefully original badges. If so, can the Royal Irish Rifles be dated? Comments most welcome. Thank you!

Cheers, Tom
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3689.jpg (71.1 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3690.jpg (80.1 KB, 79 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3687.jpg (79.5 KB, 59 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3688.jpg (84.1 KB, 69 views)
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  #2  
Old 26-05-21, 06:17 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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The Royal Irish (Ulster) Rifles Badge is unusual because of the presence of loops "north and south' as a fitment.

Firstly is the badge brass or white-metal? I find it hard to tell from the photos that are uploaded. Is the badge in your possession, is there any sign of it ever being blackened?


John
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  #3  
Old 26-05-21, 08:07 AM
kaiserwilhelm2 kaiserwilhelm2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
The Royal Irish (Ulster) Rifles Badge is unusual because of the presence of loops "north and south' as a fitment.

Firstly is the badge brass or white-metal? I find it hard to tell from the photos that are uploaded. Is the badge in your possession, is there any sign of it ever being blackened?


John
Hi John,

Thank you for your response. Yes the badge is in my possession. I do not see any signs of it haven been blackened. As to the colour I would say it is golden just a bit more on the yellow side than the golden wedding band on my finger which I guess would make it brass (?). In any case it is a nice looking badge with fine details and shows evidence of having been polished multiple times. Any futher thoughts on this badge would be most appreciatiated. Also what are your thoughts please on the Connaught badge? Thank you.

Cheers, Tom
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  #4  
Old 26-05-21, 03:16 PM
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cbuehler cbuehler is offline
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That Royal Irish Rifles is indeed strange. Yellow brass. Looks to have brass loops as well.

CB
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  #5  
Old 26-05-21, 09:37 PM
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Fatherofthree Fatherofthree is offline
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What I know in relation to Connaught Rangers badges could be written on a leaf from a Shamrock.

However, I do like the badge and believe it to be a a good 'un.

As always though, I stand to be corrected.

Regards.

Brian
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  #6  
Old 27-05-21, 06:00 AM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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My 2p worth on the RIR badge is that it may be a wartime maker so the fittings are not standard but made in brass which has been nickel plated, the plating now worn off.
Cheers,
Alex
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  #7  
Old 27-05-21, 06:38 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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The Royal Irish Rifles design you show is pattern 5849/1903. It was sealed in blackened brass and in 1913 the finish was officially changed to white metal and given a new pattern no., 7330/1913.

So perhaps your example has had the blackening removed. In terms of the strike detail it is voided (pierced) where it usually should be (scroll ends) although the rear details are a little weak.

But what is most intriguing is the use of loops and their position. Generally speaking pattern 5849/1903 dates from the period when sliders were the specified standard fitment for forage cap badges. A fitment like yours, loops N&S is to be found on officer’s full dress busby badge and pugaree badge, though the badge is superficially similar to 5849 but I don’t think your badge is one of these as the width across the badge at chest level is noticeably different and yours is a gilding metal die-struck badge. One can see that badge in the 1904 DRs and standard pattern cards below (I can’t recall where I got these images and I apologize in advance if I am sharing inappropriately).

I have two samples of 5849/1903 in my collection, one has the usual slider and appears perfectly genuine to me but one has loops E&W, this latter one I am not sure what to make of it. The blackening looks quite new (perhaps a re-coating or “renewal’ by a previous owner). Images attached, but not great quality. I would be interested to see what Bobby Rainey has to say about it and if he is not on this forum (I cant recall) I will bring it to his attention off line to see what he makes of it. He is a specialist collector to the regiment.

The Connaught Rangers looks good to me.

John
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1904 DR plate 39.jpg (46.1 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Ulster Rifles Officers sealed pattern badges Dec 1924.jpg (79.7 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg Royal Ulster Rifles Officers sealed pattern badges back Dec 1924.jpg (66.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg RIR BB front.jpg (24.7 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg RIR BB Back.JPG (99.4 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg 1903 FRONT.jpg (55.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0206.jpg (68.3 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg 1903 LOOPS.jpg (55.9 KB, 13 views)
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  #8  
Old 27-05-21, 07:24 AM
kaiserwilhelm2 kaiserwilhelm2 is offline
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Gentlemen, thank you for your replies so far. The Irish Rifles badge is turning out to be an interesting example. John thank you for bringing this badge to the attention of your IR-collector friend. I am certainly curious to know what he thinks about it. Thank you also for uploading those interesting pics of which I am particularly awed by the samples board. A very nice piece! Anyone with any thoughts on Alex his theory on this maybe being a a wartime made example? Also good to hear that the Connaught is looking good so far. Thank you again for your replies. I really appreciate it.

Cheers, Tom
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  #9  
Old 29-05-21, 08:29 PM
kaiserwilhelm2 kaiserwilhelm2 is offline
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As for the Irish Rifles badge - someone has suggested this might be a collar badge unblackened. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks!
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  #10  
Old 30-05-21, 09:19 AM
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John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiserwilhelm2 View Post
As for the Irish Rifles badge - someone has suggested this might be a collar badge unblackened. What are your thoughts on this? Thanks!
Unlikely in my opinion, collar badges were traditionally not work in rifle regiments save for officers service dress (OSD) and mess dress. The R. Irish Rifles were no different.

This badge is too big (and the wrong pattern to be a mess dress collar badge (see the pattern card I posted). In terms of being an OSD badge, although one can see a wide variety of badge types worn this one it is not the typical pre 1920's design (see below) and the fact that it it die struck is also another piece of evidence that it is unlikely to be an OSD badge with its bronzing worn away.

Other ranks did not wear collar badges until after WW2 in part to retain regimental identity when the regimental cap badge was replaced by the brigade cap badge.

I did hear back from Bobby Rainey off-line and his comments were essentially that he only knows pattern 5849 with sliders.

John
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File Type: jpg rir osd.jpg (39.5 KB, 15 views)
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  #11  
Old 30-05-21, 12:35 PM
kaiserwilhelm2 kaiserwilhelm2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Unlikely in my opinion, collar badges were traditionally not work in rifle regiments save for officers service dress (OSD) and mess dress. The R. Irish Rifles were no different.

This badge is too big (and the wrong pattern to be a mess dress collar badge (see the pattern card I posted). In terms of being an OSD badge, although one can see a wide variety of badge types worn this one it is not the typical pre 1920's design (see below) and the fact that it it die struck is also another piece of evidence that it is unlikely to be an OSD badge with its bronzing worn away.

Other ranks did not wear collar badges until after WW2 in part to retain regimental identity when the regimental cap badge was replaced by the brigade cap badge.

I did hear back from Bobby Rainey off-line and his comments were essentially that he only knows pattern 5849 with sliders.

John
Thank you John (and Bobby). Much appreciated. So if not all of the above, what is it???
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