LRDG

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

The desert cast badges are smaller (33mm) than the fake ,reproduction ones.

Yes because it’s a cast copy of a fake.

Originally Posted by Edyc7

The scorpions on the two badges do not even match. On the fake badges the horizontal abdominal lines always overlap the vertical ones which is anatomically incorrect. The opposite is true for the cast badges and the central line extends completely through the cephalothorax widely splitting it .

They are the SAME. The central line runs all the way through the fake too. Clearly the fake it was cast from was either filed/rubbed on the scorpions body or the cast was so poor it’s lost the relief of the lines. You can even see bumps on the head of the cast where the eyes would be.

... back to you.

[Frank Kelley]

A file has been "taken" to it, who do you think would do a thing like that?

Originally Posted by Edyc7

I have personally seen and handled the LRDG badge (referred to at the start of this thread) when it was in South Africa. I am of the opinion that it is an original cast badge. Unfortunately, at some time a file has been taken to it.

There is a photo of such a badge in the ANZAC ELITE book by C Lord & J Tennant on page 122, LRDG section no. 606.

Edy Cardoso

[atillathenunns]

Thank you Luke and Slinky for providing a picture of a known "Martin Marsh FAKE" LRDG badge.

Unfortunately I am going to agree with Edyc7, that the cast badge which this discussion is all about, is not copied from the Martin Marsh fake.

However, I can tell you that it does look like a cast copy of an early issue die stamped LRDG badge which has the same unmistakable line that runs down the back up past the eyes.

The question I am at odds with, was the copy made during or after WW2.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

However, I can tell you that it is indeed looks like a cast copy of an early issue die stamped LRDG badge which has the same unmistakable line that runs down the back up past the eyes.

If it’s from a die stamped badge then why is there no relief or reverse detail to the back of the badge as this would have been copied in the casting process?

Does this die stamped badge you speak of have a raised outer rim on the circlet? I bet not. It’s clear to see this fake had one which has been filed away.

The appendages, their length, shape, segments, the angles of the segments, proportions and attachment points to circlet, letters and other appendages all match the MM fake exactly (notwithstanding the missing end of the back right leg).

The scorpions body segments whilst intentionally worn down also match, so does their shape, lines and number.

The letters appear to be the only thing which at a glance one would think don’t immediately match. However, again I’m certain has been aided by a poor cast and a file. Note how the L has a very fat horizontal line but almost anorexic vertical on both.

Someone with a fake badge, a file and the means to make a casting has set out to do a job here and make a rare ‘theatre made’ badge.

[Edyc7]

The cast badges were extensively rubbed when in use during the war as were most badges.
I pointed out the cephalothorax was widely split in comparison to the reproduction badges. No amount of rubbing could do that. No amount of rubbing could cause the reversal of vertical abdominal lines from being on top of the horizontal ones to below them.

The circles on the cephalothorax are raised on the fake reproduction badges whereas the lines on the cast badges are linear and not raised but are grooves. These grooves are also found on the early die stamped badges. Investigating images of desert scorpions will show that these groves are actually present on some species.This points to the fact that the creator of these early cast badges had some knowledge of the scorpion anatomy as was the case in the later war badges were the tiny median eyes appeared.
As for the tail touching leg , this was present on the first LRDG,NZ LRP badge and was probably there to strengthen the tail.

I put it to you that the reproduction badges made in the 70’s may have been modelled after these early cast badges.

[Slinky Cat]

The bottom line is that this is not an accepted standard pattern of LRDG cap badge and without impeccable provenance most people wouldn’t want it or pay for it

[akiko]

I wonder why someone would sell something for US$806 less than they paid for it?
It's quite a fascinating story and I'm sure more will come out later.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Luke H

If it’s from a die stamped badge then why is there no relief or reverse detail to the back of the badge as this would have been copied in the casting process?

Without having a hands on with the badge in question, and just going by the pictures on ebay, it could be possible that there is a slight depression on the reverse of the scorpion, that has been protected from the file, something that appears to be black paint.

Originally Posted by Luke H

Does this die stamped badge you speak of have a raised outer rim on the circlet? I bet not. It’s clear to see this fake had one which has been filed away.

The die stamped LRDG badge that I have referred to, is the same variation that was owned by Shaun Aumua which I mentioned in post #26, who also owned the other LRDG badge that you provided a link for in post #23.
I have some photos of Shaun’s die stamped touching tail LRDG badge, when I find them it will post the pictures.

Originally Posted by Luke H

The appendages, their length, shape, segments, the angles of the segments, proportions and attachment points to circlet, letters and other appendages all match the MM fake exactly (notwithstanding the missing end of the back right leg).

The MM fake you have posted in post #33, I believe is an exact copy of the 1970s reproduction LRDG badge that was made by Russell King Badges for the British LRDG Association.
It is my opinion, and it does stand to reason, that the Russell King design would have been based on a genuine LRDG badge, with the addition of a pebbled wheel so it could be easily identified as a reproduction.

Originally Posted by Luke H

The scorpions body segments whilst intentionally worn down also match, so does their shape, lines and number.
The letters appear to be the only thing which at a glance one would think don’t immediately match. However, again I’m certain has been aided by a poor cast and a file. Note how the L has a very fat horizontal line but almost anorexic vertical on both.
Someone with a fake badge, a file and the means to make a casting has set out to do a job here and make a rare ‘theatre made’ badge.

Again, without having a hands on with the badge in question and a close inspection with a jewellers loop, I cant even be a 100% sure from the pictures supplied that the badge is actually cast, it could be that some plonker has stupidly used a wire buff or sand paper to clean it, which is something I have witnessed before with a collector here in New Zealand.

Anybody able to supply a picture of the back of a MM fake badge?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Edyc7

The cast badges were extensively rubbed when in use during the war as were most badges.
I pointed out the cephalothorax was widely split in comparison to the reproduction badges. No amount of rubbing could do that. No amount of rubbing could cause the reversal of vertical abdominal lines from being on top of the horizontal ones to below them.

The circles on the cephalothorax are raised on the fake reproduction badges whereas the lines on the cast badges are linear and not raised but are grooves. These grooves are also found on the early die stamped badges. Investigating images of desert scorpions will show that these groves are actually present on some species.This points to the fact that the creator of these early cast badges had some knowledge of the scorpion anatomy as was the case in the later war badges were the tiny median eyes appeared.
As for the tail touching leg , this was present on the first LRDG,NZ LRP badge and was probably there to strengthen the tail.

I put it to you that the reproduction badges made in the 70’s may have been modelled after these early cast badges.

Interesting, the LRDG badge you pictured on the left is one that I originally posted, it was from a suit case of items that belonged to Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen.

To be honest, in my books heavily worn/defaced and cast LRDG badges are always a bit of a big red flag, but the lugs on the one in question tick some boxes for me, which is something fakers always get wrong, so I think its worth rattling the cage to see what comes out.

I have to ask, what’s your interest, why didn’t you buy it when you personally handled it, if you knew it was pukka it must have been a bargain given its condition?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Slinky Cat

The bottom line is that this is not an accepted standard pattern of LRDG cap badge and without impeccable provenance most people wouldn’t want it or pay for it

I am no LRDG expert, so until better information is provided, I am on the fence with this badge, and as for “impeccable provenance” when it comes to LRDG badges, that is something I am very interested in.

Just out of interest, the most common variation of LRDG badge that everybody offers up on this forum is usually the die cast version, the irony is that most of the original LRDG die cast badges that are posted on this forum were never actually issued to members of the LRDG, and only came on the market after the death of Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen who was the Chairman of the British LRDG Association.

So, for those forum members who own an original die cast LRDG badge, it would be interesting to see how many have provenance that dates their badge before April 2001.

[atillathenunns]

Edyc7 posted a picture of a LRDG badge in post #35 and described it as an early cast badge.
So, I might as well play one of my aces early.
However, I am of the opinion this badge is not cast but die-stamped.

The picture was sent to me by the son of Major-General David Lloyd Owen.
Until now I have never posted the back of the badge online but have shared it privately to a few LRDG enthusiasts and forum members without the graffiti.

The lugs have been pinched flat, but the rest of the back IMO is a perfect example of an early wartime die-stamped LRDG badge, retaining some of its black finish.

Lioyd Owen's son confirmed to me that the back of the scorpion is dished in, which is why IMO it has retained quite a lot of black finish on the back of the scorpion.
The obverse of the badge has seen a lot of polishing, probably wartime and post war.

DLO badge obverse.jpg
DLO badge reverse.jpg

[Edyc7]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Interesting, the LRDG badge you pictured on the left is one that I originally posted, it was from a suit case of items that belonged to Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen.

To be honest, in my books heavily worn/defaced and cast LRDG badges are always a bit of a big red flag, but the lugs on the one in question tick some boxes for me, which is something fakers always get wrong, so I think its worth rattling the cage to see what comes out.

I have to ask, what’s your interest, why didn’t you buy it when you personally handled it, if you knew it was pukka it must have been a bargain given its condition?

I did not offer to purchase this badge at the time as I already had a few of them. I also did not like that someone had filed the outer lip of the circle off. The badge was meant to portray a scorpion in the rim of a wheel which would have had an outer ridge.

The badge does have a depression on the back and I presume the metal was originally blackened as I have another that is so blackened.

I am honored to say that I am the owner of the David L. Lloyd Owen badge that was depicted in my post (left).

[atillathenunns]

Well played sir, I am pretty sure I know who you are, would you be so kind to provide better pictures of the back please?

[Belly]

Originally Posted by atillathenunns

Just out of interest, the most common variation of LRDG badge that everybody offers up on this forum is usually the die cast version, the irony is that most of the original LRDG die cast badges that are posted on this forum were never actually issued to members of the LRDG, and only came on the market after the death of Major-General D. L. Lloyd Owen who was the Chairman of the British LRDG Association.

So, for those forum members who own an original die cast LRDG badge, it would be interesting to see how many have provenance that dates their badge before April 2001.

I think Owen was a little bit more than just the "Chairman of the British LRDG Association"! Granted all these badges are unissued, but are you seriously inferring that these are not of war time manufacture?

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Belly

I think Owen was a little bit more than just the "Chairman of the British LRDG Association"! Granted all these badges are unissued, but are you seriously inferring that these are not of war time manufacture?

Most people who are LRDG fans know who DLO is, but not many would know he was Chairman of the British LRDG Association, which I think is important when looking at LRDG badges that were sanctioned by the British LRDG Association.
I know another forum member has some of the Associations badge records and photos of sample reproduction badges. Hopefully they will see this thread and post some pictures.

To answer your question, no I am not inferring that they are not of war time manufacture.
What I am saying is that it is very likely that many of the die cast LRDG badges that are featured on this forum were never issued during the war.