Transition to St. Edwards crown badges

[Bill A]

Several times the question has come up about dating badges and the changes in design due to the accension of a new monarch. As a valuable guide for organizing badges, the type of crown is a quick dating reference. However, we often jump to generalizations and say 1953-68 for Canadian queen's crown badges. Reviewing files on different corps and regiments, the adoption of the St. Edwards crown badges took place over an extended period of time. For example, one of the larger corps, the RCASC did not have an approved queen's crown badge issued until sometime in late 1955. And, it was some time before the badges were issued to the entire corps. Correspondence noted that there quite a mix of old and new pattern badges in wear in 1956.

[Bill A]

Correspondence in archives, notes a request by the Grey & Simcoe Foresters for their new crown pattern badge in 1957. The response indicated that with 2,100 badges in inventory, it would be some time before new badges would be considered.

[edstorey]

My Father recalls that he did not get issued his RCE EIIR badge until the late 1950s.

[Mike_2817]

Generally specking, most Sealed Pattern Cards were simply marked 'New production shall be St Edwards Crown' at least in British Service.. and as mentioned above, old stocks needed to be wasted out first. When a new badge was produced, a new 'Sealed Pattern' was produced.

[Bill A]

A mystery solved. The Elgin Regiment wore kc badges long, long, long into the qc period. I remember being on summer exercise at Petawawa in 1970, and the Elgins at that time light armoured recce and were opfor (IIRC). In an ambush, we destroyed a recce troop they sent down a road to probe our defences. The crew commander of the vehicle that ended up beside our AT position spent several minutes cursing us out in the most profane language I had heard to that date. For some reason, his kc crown cap badge and red faced expression still sticks in my mind.
The Elgins had submitted a request for queen's crown badges in 1955. Being the design was a simple modfication of the badge replacing the king's crown with the St. Edwards crown, the application was easily approved. However, in the same letter, the Elgins were informed that s they had a 10 year inventory of existing badges, no new badges would be made until a procurement was necessary.

[sarge5020]

On the link below to the Essex Armoured Soldiers Museum web site, there is information about the adoption of the new Windsor Regiment badge which was finally approved in 1956. The new badges did not show up until sometime in 1957 or 58. The Regiment wore the Essex Regiment (Tank) badge.
http://essex-armoured-soldiers-museu...22nd-regiment/

[Michael Dorosh]

I'd say that the Tudor Crown never completely faded from use in all honesty. Still see examples in use today, with blind eyes being turned to them. I wore one myself (i.e. "King's Crown" cap badge) with our regimental Pipes and Drums from 1987 to 1995 or so. I recall the Drum Major had a very nice set of K.C. collar dogs on his uniform. In England in 1990, the Pipe Major of The Canadian Scottish paraded - on Horse Guards no less - with a K.C. cap badge on his glengarry, and naught was said.

[WJ Miller]

So for what reason or reasons would servicemen be wearing KC era badges after QC badges had been produced and issued? Is it nostalgia or quality of insignia? Or some other reason?

Speaking as a collector only, the quality of many latter day badges is underwhelming to say the least. So I can see someone seeking out a better quality badge particularly if the only difference is the shape of the monarch's crown...

[Bill A]

A list of reasons would include all of the above plus more. Nostalgia, tradition, quality of the badges, individual preference, etc.
Two anecdotes from my experience. I was an instructor on the Summer Student Training Program in 1970, and we had a major shortage of badges. An order arrived in stores and were issued to personnel. Within minutes two problems were obvious; either the crown snapped off or the sliders broke off. Those that could acquired the king's crown version.
My father joined the Grey & Simcoes in 1955 and was issued a king's crown badge. When he retired in the 1980's, he was still wearing the same badge. A couple of times he had been told to get the proper crown badge put up, but by various means he avoided doing it.

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally Posted by WJ Miller

So for what reason or reasons would servicemen be wearing KC era badges after QC badges had been produced and issued? Is it nostalgia or quality of insignia? Or some other reason?

Speaking as a collector only, the quality of many latter day badges is underwhelming to say the least. So I can see someone seeking out a better quality badge particularly if the only difference is the shape of the monarch's crown...

To add to Bill's post, I will hasten to add this is NOT any disrespect to the current monarch, at least, it wasn't from myself or anyone I am aware of. Not a political statement or expression of preference over one monarch, gender, or lineage over another. I think - speaking for myself, anyway - there was a very real sense of awe at what was achieved by the fellows in those king's crown badges and a desire to identify with them even more closely. Which is why the current high-pitched whining in certain quarters about the return to historic rank insignia, div patches, etc., seems so alien and mystifying to me. The army of the 1980s still had Second World War veterans coming in large numbers to regimental events - and while still fairly healthy - and when I joined, the RSM wore medals for his service under fire in the Korean War. We admired those men greatly, and moreover, were fortunate to have contact with them in life. Actually, our annual association dinner boasted a First World War veteran in attendance my first few years with the regiment, who got up to speak a few words each year - he had seen the gas attack at Ypres with his own eyes. Amazing stuff. It is a tiny thing, but that little crown seemed to connect us that much more to them.

It still does.

It is sad but inevitable that the new generations of soldiers will not have had that personal contact with the men who made our reputations. I am still shocked to read, though, about how little a noisy few care seem to care about our traditions, or rather, those traditions. But perhaps they were simply not fortunate enough to have served at that time and had those contacts. I feel fortunate, and regret not making more of the experience when I had the chance, as we lose more and more of them all the time. On Remembrance Day this year, a couple of the fellows - as part of an annual routine they've been doing for a few years now - delayed going to the Legion in order to instead pay a visit to the Veteran's hospital and spend a couple of hours visiting the fellows who couldn't make it out to any of the services. This was my first year going out with them, and it was very rewarding. I daresay there were one or two high-quality cap badges on display in cabinets and on heads.

As to quality, by coincidence I am at our armouries today on a project with the QMSI discussing the regiment's situation re: clothing and insignia, and that is very much a hot topic among various groups, including the Regimental Senate, clothing committee, Regimental Association, etc. There seem to be many options today for obtaining badges; more choice does not always translate into better quality.

[ddaydodger]

Not long ago I was posted to Western Area Training Center, a young Militia MCpl showed up on parade wearing a nice shiny brass KC badge for his regiment. Not only was it KC, but it lacked the "Royal" title his regiment had been awarded. I call him a "Disloyal f@$K" and made him wear a helmet until the correct badge could be acquired. The CSM completely supported this. The wearing of KC badges was completely prohibited in my old regiment, and woe be it to the young soldier who showed up wearing his dad's/ grandfather's cap badge.

[REMEVMBEA1]

I joined up in 1958 and there were still quite a few people wearing KC badges , I think along with all the reasons given above there was also a desire by some squaddies to simply look like old sweats

[GTB]

When I joined the King's Own Malta Regt (T) in 1967 I was issued with a KC b/m badge. The Regt retained this style of OR's cap badge up to disbandment in 1972 - QC and a/a badges simply never existed. At the time I naively thought that the Regt didn't want to break the bond between its title and corresponding Crown!
GTB

[Chris Walker]

Dear Friends.

A little note from my memory but not with a cap badge but an Officer's rank badge. If I might recall.

In 1967 as a nice new lance corporal in the Royal Corps of Signals, I was lucky enough to go on secondment for six months from 1 Div HQ & Signal Regiment in Verden Allar West Germany (Near enough spelling) to the Army Base Unit in Larzac in the south of France. Very nice it was too.

It was a mixed cap badge unit commanded by a Major Salazar, who delighted in wearing French Para Wings. He was from the 1st Anglian Regt. and when ever we were requested to go on parade (Not very often I hasten to add) he always mentioned that he was an officer with a Kings Commission and wore a pair of King's Crowns on his shoulder to prove this to any young soldier who was not aware of the difference. As I have mentioned this was 1967.

Kind regards

Chris Walker
www.signalsbadges.co.uk

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I have never posted on the Canadian side before and the following comments are specifically for the change of crowns for the UK forces.

As part of my book I took some time in looking into when and why the crown on badges changed from the Tudor to St. Edwards. I quote:

The labelling of badges as ‘King’s’ and ‘Queen’s’ crown is a collectors classification only and is not an official designation. The identifiers of ‘Tudor Crown’ and ‘St. Edward’s Crown’ are used in Army Council Instructions to denote the two different Sovereign Crowns and will continue to be used in this book.

So, when did the crown change?

Although the Royal Household and the Household troops are believed to have changed their Crowns and Cyphers very quickly, and were even wearing them at the coronation of the new Sovereign, the first recorded instance of approval of changes by Queen Elizabeth II relates to the change of the Royal Cypher on 11th June 1952. (6) The first recorded instance of approval of the new crown dates back to 10th July 1952. (7) However, it took almost six months before such changes were officially issued to the Army via Army Council Instruction (ACI) 63 of 31st January 1953. This gave the authority for the change in both the Sovereigns Crown and the Royal Cypher used in items such as badges and buttons. Due to the importance of this document it is worth noting it here....

Footnotes 6 and 7 (as used above) relate to:

6. Memorandum from Treasury Chambers, Whitehall dated 11th June 1952, unlabelled and titled COMMITTEE OF THE GRANT OF HONOURS, DECORATIONS AND MEDALS ROYAL CYPHER OF HM QUEEN ELIZABETH II.

7. Memorandum from The War Office, Chessington dated 10th July 1952 titled Royal Cypher and Crown, labelled 34A, held in file WO 32/14644 at the National Archives, Kew, London.

Looking at the ADC of 31st Jabuary 1953.

63. Royal Cypher and Crown.

3. In all future designs embodying a representation of the Crown without the Royal Cypher, the St. Edward’s Crown will take the place of the Tudor Crown. Existing designs should not be changed unless or until it is necessary to do so. Wherever, however, a design embodying the Crown has for any reason to be changed, the St. Edward’s Crown should be substituted for the Tudor Crown. No unnecessary expense should be incurred in making these changes and where alteration in an existing design would involve such expense it should be deferred. There will be no objection to the use of two different designs for the Crown in transition period before all Crowns are changed to the design of St. Edward’s Crown. (Author’s emphasis).

4. In accordance with para. 3 above badges and buttons which bear the Crown without the Royal Cypher will not be modified until the existing dies are replaced, unless a change in the design is authorised for other reasons. In this connection it is proposed to replace dies in a phased programme over a period of years, beginning with the oldest. (Author’s emphasis).

Basically Tudor Crowned badges continued to be used until all stocks were used up. Only then were they to be replaced by St. Edwards Crowned badges. This rule is reiterated many times in official doco.

Issue of the new St. Edwards Crowned badge, at times, took many years to occur and, in principle, it is not inconceivable that even today if a stock of Tudor Crowned badges were discovered then they could still be issued out. I state this as I have never seen an official document preventing this action taking place.

As I first stated, this is the official UK position from official documentation but suspect that the Canadian authorities followed a similar procedure.

Hope this is of interest.

Regards

Chris

NB Above quotes taken from: Chapter 4: A Change in Crowns - Anodised Aluminium: The 'No Bull' Cap Badge of the British Army.