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  #1  
Old 20-04-08, 06:14 PM
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Default Liverpool Pals Presentation Badge in Silver - A Question

I've noticed we have a lot of interest on the forum for Liverpool Regiment cap badges so this question should be a doddle for the two forum experts......

How many badges were manufactured? How many London to how many Chester hallmarks?

I understand that a Battalion of men consists of just under one thousand men; the 17/18/19/20th Battalions but the badge was only given to those who enlisted before 16th October 1914?

Thank you in advance for taking the time to reply to my question.
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 20-04-08 at 06:48 PM.
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  #2  
Old 20-04-08, 07:26 PM
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Good question. I'm trying to find out myself. I probably need to find the Elkington papers and the Derby papers to answer it. I think there was a specific amount made for the presentations in ?Oct 1914 (don't have my refs in front of me).
What everyone knows is that there are an awful lot more London assayed badges that Chester ones (I wished I had had a spare £160 the other week when a certain dealer had a nice Chester one !)
What does surprise me is that Elkington's themselves were literally just around the corner from the Birmingham assay office - yet there are none known with Birmingham assay marks !
I have a couple of leads which - when I get time - I will chase up.
Watch this space !
Julian
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  #3  
Old 20-04-08, 07:27 PM
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I dont know what the forum experts will say, but I have never seen any references to the actual numbers of hall marked silver Liverpool Pals produced other than the following.

To quote Graham Maddocks" The Liverpool Pals "

" Some confusion still exists as to who was actully presented with the silver badge.The intention was that only the original 3000 recruits should recive it and after that no more were to be issued under any circumstances.However it would appear that when Lord Derby raised the 4th City Battalion in November 1914 he presented its members also with the silver badge..."

Graham also said " The Liverpool Jewellers Elkington and Co were given the order for the silver badges and by early November, had several examples on display in the windows of their shop in Lord Street. Each was hallmarked, some with Chester Assay Office mark,but most with that of Birmingham.

I think that if this is the most information Graham was able to find during his researches ,it is unlikely that further information will come to light in the future ,so the simple answer is that it appears that approx. 4000 hall marked silver badges may have been produced and that the majority were hall marked Birmingham
P.B.

P.S. Now this is interesting, did Graham mean London and not Birmingham or perhaps if a later lot of badges were ordered for the 4th Battalion were they hall marked somewhere different to the original ones. Any thoughts welcome
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Last edited by Peter Brydon; 20-04-08 at 07:44 PM. Reason: pictures
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  #4  
Old 20-04-08, 07:46 PM
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Thank you for the most imformative replies gentlemen. I had guessed around 4000 using the incorrect logic of there being 4 Battalions thus 4000 badges!

P.B. In regards to The Liverpool Jewellers Elkington and Co and their shop.....could members of the public walk in and buy these badges and did they ever use the dies to strike more silver badges post war? For example could a veteran walk into the shop who had lost his badge and order a replacement?

Hard questions...sorry.
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 20-04-08 at 07:50 PM.
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  #5  
Old 20-04-08, 08:09 PM
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Sorry, I should have made it clear that although Elkington's had shops in various places, their factory was in Birmingham.
Peter - I think GM made a mistake, London not Birmingham.

The silver badge was a private purchase by the Earl of Derby, highly unlikely that anyone could buy one later. Again, I don't think anyone has come across a silver one with an assay date other than 1914 ! The bronze OSDs were also private purchase (I haven't come across any with maker's marks yet). The Other Ranks patterns were authorised by the War Office. The badge was declared officially obsolete on 10th August 1921.

Last edited by KLR; 20-04-08 at 08:15 PM.
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  #6  
Old 20-04-08, 08:10 PM
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JJ,

Going back to the original History of the Liverpool Pals ( The 89th Brigade by Brig. Gen Stanley-Lord Derby`s brother )

Page 53 " Lord Derby in accordance with the privaledge that he had claimed presented all the men who had joined up with one of these badges in silver.This was to be given only to those who had enlisted at the time and was to be a mark that they were one of the "originals "....... "This rule has been most rigidly abided by in spite of numerous requests for the silver badges.Letters soon came in asking if the silver badges can be purchased,but there is no breaking of this rule""

I cannot answer the second part of your question except to say it would have been illegal to make a hall marked badge later than 1914 and to put a 1914 hall mark on it

Peter
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  #7  
Old 21-04-08, 09:21 AM
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Thank you again for the excellent replies.

Someone on another forum showed me a silver badge minus any hallmarks, not one of those shoddy white metal repro's. Perhaps another jewelers copy? I`ll see if they will join the forum to show you.

Another question.........I see that a lot of these badges were altered to a pin fastening; from your own collecting experience is one more likely to encouter an un-messed with lugged example rather than a pin back?
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Last edited by Jibba Jabba; 21-04-08 at 09:26 AM.
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  #8  
Old 21-04-08, 11:16 AM
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I've seen 2 or 3 specific sweetheart brooches of this badge. In hallmarked silver - all assayed in Birmingham with the maker being RC. They look (fairly) good on the front but v poor on the back.
Given that the troops issued with these were unlikely to take them overseas on active service, many were converted to brooches etc and/or inscribed either with the soldier's name or a wife etc. I couldn't give you numbers / percentages but I might guess at 50% ???.
Mine has been "messed about with" but is inscribed to a soldier in the 20th Bn - thus giving the lie to the idea that they were only habnded out to those in the 17th, 18th and 19th.
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  #9  
Old 21-04-08, 11:40 AM
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I have taken these images from a friend and have sent him a message asking if I can use them here. He hasnt responded yet, but if he doesnt want me to show this badge I`ll pull this post down.

Possible jewelers copy, replacement issue or sweetheart?



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  #10  
Old 21-04-08, 04:46 PM
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Before I moved away from Liverpool I used to search the Antique shops and Pawn Brokers, as well as any other likely sources ,for military items.

I found a number of Pals silver badges usually converted into brooches with the lugs removed and a pin fastening put in their place. On one occasion only I found a Pals badge with a silver ring added to the top of the badge so it could be worn as a pendant.

I dont remember that many " as issued " silver Pals badges being for sale.

P.B.
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  #11  
Old 25-08-08, 01:59 PM
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Bosleys have WW1 pair and hallmarked silver Pals badge in their forthcoming auction. The badge was been brooched and is engraved" No 17947 F.Sansom 3rd C.B. K.L.R. Presented 18th November 1914.

The cataloguer must have been having an off day because he says " It must be presumed that Sansom recieved his ( cap badge) the following month by virtue of being in the 3rd Cadet Battalion"

Whilst Lord Derby only recieved permission for his crest to be used by the Liverpool Pals as a cap badge on 14th October 1914 it must have taken some time for the silver Pals badges to have been made and hall marked, especially in the quantity required.So for the badge above to have been presented on 18th November 1914 seems quite reasonable. I also have post card showing the presentation of silver badges and this is captioned on the front" November 26th 1914". It would appear therefore that there were at least two silver badge presentation parades.

I would have thought the inscription 3rd C.B stood for 3rd City Battalion and not cadet battalion but there it is in black and white in the catalogue.

P.B.
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  #12  
Old 19-06-19, 02:44 PM
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Here is mine.



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  #13  
Old 19-06-19, 02:53 PM
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London hallmarked.
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  #14  
Old 20-06-19, 02:53 AM
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See the "crazy paving" effect to the back? Suggests that the "hammer head" (which strikes the back of the badge) is not in the best of nick. Have seen this before on many club, association and other badges.

Also interesting to see that it is "solid backed" and not like a cap badge which is usually "hollow backed".

A great item. Not my field but really nice to see!
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  #15  
Old 20-06-19, 06:03 AM
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"crazy paving" is normal for these badges, no "hammer head" as they were die cast in silver and not die struck, so it is "solid backed"


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Originally Posted by dumdum View Post
See the "crazy paving" effect to the back?
Suggests that the "hammer head" (which strikes the back of the badge) is not in the best of nick. Have seen this before on many club, association and other badges.

Also interesting to see that it is "solid backed" and not like a cap badge which is usually "hollow backed".

A great item. Not my field but really nice to see!
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