York & Lancs Officer

[badger123]

My son bought this picture a short while ago (it was in a frame with a small bronze Y&L badge-the type mentioned in previous threads).

What is really bugging me is what the writing says. I know that forum members are renown for their ability to come up with answers to puzzles so please feel free to come up with suggestions.

I know that the bottom word is 'Sheffield' but what does the rest say??? And can anyone tell me about the officers rank, when did pips/stars on the shoulder come into use?

I have played around with the contrast/brightness for the second picture.

Thanks, Ivan

[matti467]

Shoulder rank was a 'Guards Thing' before 1914. Cuff rank remained in use by many officers, of pre-war vintage up to the end of hostilities. Robert Graves was cold shouldered in the RWF mess for having shoulder rank which he had worn in the Royal Welch. It was deemed by some old-soldiers as cowardly hidding ones rank away from the obvious cuff insignia. As the war progressed more and more officers moved it to the shoulder. One good reason is that it remained clear and didn't become obscured with muck and grime of trench life.
Matti

[Toby Purcell]

From the Battle of the Somme in July 1916 onwards the wearing of rank on the shoulders became more and more practised and some units even encouraged the wearing of ORs SD jackets with officer rank on the shoulder straps. Two pips on the shoulder was a full lieutenant and three pips was a captain.

Sheffield fell within the recruiting area of the York and Lancaster Regiment and the city raised its own battalion of this regiment in 1914-15. It was all but wiped out just outside Serre on the 1st July 1916.

The writing appears to be the officers name and middle initial (too small for me to read) above the word Sheffield, which is presumably where the photo was taken.

[badger123]

Matti/Toby,

Thanks for the info about the pips, very interesting.

The Y&L raised 22 battalions during WW1 and I am conscious that this could be an officer of any one of them (except the 5th Battalion).

The Sheffield link is intriguing as a potential candidate could be someone from the 4th Hallamshire Battalion (Hallamshire being a part of Sheffield and the surrounding area).

I have tried to blow up the picture and have come up with this.

Ivan

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by badger123

Matti/Toby,

Thanks for the info about the pips, very interesting.

The Y&L raised 22 battalions during WW1 and I am conscious that this could be an officer of any one of them (except the 5th Battalion).

The Sheffield link is intriguing as a potential candidate could be someone from the 4th Hallamshire Battalion (Hallamshire being a part of Sheffield and the surrounding area).

I have tried to blow up the picture and have come up with this.

Ivan

I forgot to say that it was the 12th (Sheffield City) 'Service Battalion' (i.e. war raised) of the York and Lancs.

The name now looks like a woman's (perhaps his paramour) and reads 'Ethel M' something (last word still illegible).

[badger123]

I thought Ethel as well Toby but close up, I'm not so sure as there seems to be a large gap between what seems to be a letter 'E' and the 'thel'. But thats the closest thing so far.

Cheers, Ivan

Ivan,

I reckon that might be the signature of the Sheffield photographer, Ethel M. Eadon.

Regards,

Peter.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by matti467

Shoulder rank was a 'Guards Thing' before 1914. Cuff rank remained in use by many officers, of pre-war vintage up to the end of hostilities. Robert Graves was cold shouldered in the RWF mess for having shoulder rank which he had worn in the Royal Welch. It was deemed by some old-soldiers as cowardly hidding ones rank away from the obvious cuff insignia. As the war progressed more and more officers moved it to the shoulder. One good reason is that it remained clear and didn't become obscured with muck and grime of trench life.
Matti

I think you mean ".... had worn in the Welsh Regiment". Title changed to Welch by Army Order in 1920.

They recently became sort of Royal by their great good fortune of being absorbed by the Royal Welch Fusiliers, the senior and only Royal regiment of Wales.

[badger123]

Peter,
I think you may have hit the nail on the head!

It does indeed look like Ethel M Eadon and a quick google shows a photographer of that name in Sheffield.

Any idea why the photographer would sign the front of the photo?

Thanks, Ivan

Originally Posted by badger123

Peter,
I think you may have hit the nail on the head!

It does indeed look like Ethel M Eadon and a quick google shows a photographer of that name in Sheffield.

Any idea why the photographer would sign the front of the photo?

Thanks, Ivan

No idea, Ivan. Perhaps she was a friend of the recipient?

Cheers,

PJ

[badger123]

You could be right Peter, I'll have to do some more digging.

There was another photo with this one showing an old chap named as Wm Tozer and dated 1910 and its possible that the two are linked so I will have to make contact with the Y&L museum to see if they have anything.

Thanks, Ivan

4:th (Hallamshire) Battalion, The York and
Lancaster Regiment.
Cadet Lance-Corporal William Tozer,
from the Malvern College Contingent,
Junior Division, Officers Training Corps, to
be Second Lieutenant. (To be supernumerary).
Dated 24th June, 1914.


peter

[badger123]

Thank you for that Peter, it gives me something to get my teeth into. Is that an extract from the London Gazette?

It would be interesting to follow it up as the William Tozer I was referring to was the old man in the 2nd picture (far too old to be a Lt in 1914) but I suppose it is possible he was the son of the old man?

My old Dad used to work for a steel company called Steel, Peech and Tozer in Sheffield (which became British Steel and made munitions and steel for both world wars) and I believe that the old man picture was Mr Tozer himself.

Cheers, Ivan

Originally Posted by badger123

Thank you for that Peter, it gives me something to get my teeth into. Is that an extract from the London Gazette?

It would be interesting to follow it up as the William Tozer I was referring to was the old man in the 2nd picture (far too old to be a Lt in 1914) but I suppose it is possible he was the son of the old man?

My old Dad used to work for a steel company called Steel, Peech and Tozer in Sheffield (which became British Steel and made munitions and steel for both world wars) and I believe that the old man picture was Mr Tozer himself.

Cheers, Ivan

Hi he is Lt col WW2 that all i can fine will look some more later

peter

[badger123]

Apparently Peter as a Lt Col, he co wrote something called the log book of the Hallamshires 1859 to 1939.

Anyone heard of this or got a copy?