"Restrikes From Original Dies"

[Charlie585]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Original Reverse Hardened Dies for Military Badges (used to produce working dies) were paid for in part at least by the MoD

This is an invoice for sample badges for approval..

Badge was 1949 Pattarn RAOC 'Slim Tonanti' in Officers Gilt/Silver and Other Ranks GM/Plate

I would love an RAOC badge die or Sealed Pattern examples for that matter for my collection, as sadly I have neither..

Hi Mike,

Thanks for showing that document, very interesting.

I would seem that Mr Morrison had those dies that you seek, I wonder what became of them?

Regards

Ry

[Alan O]

My thought:

Yes it did happen as Morrison badges show and contempory authors record. Why would Gaylor and K&K make it up? Qui bono?

Were old dies sold off or melted down for scrap? While many were probably recycled, enough were not and are now in people's collections (like KLRs) or occasionally pop up for sale in auctions to show that many manufacturers did not have a wholesale clear out of old dies when crowns changed or regts disbanded.

Can you really tell the difference? Only if the fakes were in the wrong metals, wrong fastenings (Morrison's sliders are very flat and very tapered with broad necks), dodgy maker's name or wrong construction.

Is it still going on? Probably not as all the originals dies were sold off long ago and any that were used to make original badges are long gone, worn out or the owners' dead after 40 years have passed.

Are there lots about - not unless old collections are being sold off which makes them all the harder to recognise as they only pop up in small numbers.

Can a dealer really tell with 100% accuracy that he can spot an early 70s repro? Not unless the badge falls into a catagorey in para 2. Far easier to spot modern fakes made from new dies or when they can be compared to fakes still in production.

Can you believe the line 'made from original dies on ebay' - of course not as its a dealer's spin just like 'my pre 1958 Infantry design bagde made by JR Gaunt Bham is a genuine badge' where as Hagwalthers excellent work has exposed which a/a badges are 1970s/80s or 90s fakes.

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

Original Reverse Hardened Dies for Military Badges (used to produce working dies) were paid for in part at least by the MoD

This is an invoice for sample badges for approval..

Badge was 1949 Pattarn RAOC 'Slim Tonanti' in Officers Gilt/Silver and Other Ranks GM/Plate

I would love an RAOC badge die or Sealed Pattern examples for that matter for my collection, as sadly I have neither..

Hi Mike,

To reinforce what Mike said. Correspondence like this is quite common in the National Archives with, as I understand, the War Office/MoD footing at least part, if not all, of the cost for the dies themselves.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Can you believe the line 'made from original dies on ebay' - of course not as its a dealer's spin just like 'my pre 1958 Infantry design bagde made by JR Gaunt Bham is a genuine badge' where as Hagwalthers excellent work has exposed which a/a badges are 1970s/80s or 90s fakes.

Thanks Alan...

Regards

Chris

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

could anyone please show me what they believe to be a "Restrike from an Original Die"?

How could we tell the difference if they were made in the same gauge and metals as the originals? They would be so old now that it would be difficult to differentiate.

If they were re-struck, as above, many moons ago from the original dies what makes them any less genuine from badges re-struck as a result of a second, third or fourth run when badges were re-ordered to replenish regimental stocks? The only difference is they made after the unit was amalgamated or disbanded.

Personally it doesn't really matter as collectors will have our own criteria on what badges they regard as OK, and their views ought to be respected. Some are quite happy to collect sand cast badges as genuine but they were not produced from original dies - yet they were worn within a regiment. I don't collect sand cast, but believe those who do have a legitimate claim for classing them as genuine badges.

I am also inclined to believe manufacturers didn't necessarily throw out old dies immediately - some may have but not all - it depends on their business practices at the time. To suggest none of them kept their old dies is purely speculation - I have come across obsolete items in stock inventories stored away in back corners; so why not old dies?

Having said that, however, I agree that current sellers claiming "restrikes from original dies" are having themselves and everyone else on.

Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Guys,
thanks for the replies so far, which have been very interesting. I am not saying some dies were not kept in store by the original manufacturers! However I would reiterate the point that most would have become obsolete and unusable in the 1950s (amalgamations, anodisation and a change of monarch). OK, if some of the mainstream manufacturers did produce reruns in the 1970's (?) can someone post an example (less Gaunt B'Ham).

The point of the thread was to "Rubbish" the term "Restrike" and "Struck from Original Dies"! Restrike is a term I now only use with post 1890s badges when referring to the Gaunt B'Ham marked items.

Thanks again and I look forward to further posts.

Andy

[Sonofacqms]

When I first started work in the early 1960's as a compositor in a small printers I found a drawer with lots of small letterpress printing blocks made from zinc or copper. To my amazement and wonder I found quite a lot of these printing blocks were connected to the military, RAF, Essex Regt etc.

These were obviously kept in the hope that further reprint orders would come flooding through the door, we did print a recruiting booklet for the East Anglian Brigade and an RAF police magazine, but with new printing plates and during my five year apprenticeship I never ever saw one of these blocks used.

This was the policy of many small British firms in those days when things that should have been thrown away after use were kept "in case" they were needed. Badge manufacturers like small printers I would think were no different . . !

Rob

[2747andy]

Rob,
I agree hoarding was the "in thing" post war, my Grandparents kept loads of things "Just in Case"! lol

The point I'm trying to get across is, Yes, manufacturers may of held onto the old dies, but the common theory that someone then got hold of them and started mass producing restrikes from the 1970's onwards is, IMO Hogwash!

We have all used the term "Restrike", (me too!) when pointing out that a badge is not the genuine article, when we should have said Reproduction (fake or copy).

Andy

[KLR]

There's a Ministry of Supply document at the National Archives relating to cap badge production between 1939 and 1946 (a good source as the RACD ledgers came to an end in '39). It is broken down into details of which unit, pattern no, when ordered, manufacturers, cost (usually per quantity) delivery etc etc etc. Whilst copying details for the King's I noted (and I can't remember which units) that costs for a 'new die' were recorded here and there, presumably as the 'old one' was worn out rather than for a new 'design' - but that could be checked against date and pattern numbers.
Needless to say, there is no mention of what happened to the 'old dies' but there must have been quite a few during those years of heavy production.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Rob,
I agree hoarding was the "in thing" post war, my Grandparents kept loads of things "Just in Case"! lol

The point I'm trying to get across is, Yes, manufacturers may of held onto the old dies, but the common theory that someone then got hold of them and started mass producing restrikes from the 1970's onwards is, IMO Hogwash!

We have all used the term "Restrike", (me too!) when pointing out that a badge is not the genuine article, when we should have said Reproduction (fake or copy).

Andy

But Andy that is exactly what contempory collectors recorded was happening in the early 70s. Old dies were bought from manufacturers and pressed back in to service to meet the demand from collectors. Soon supplanted by new dies and fantsy badges (a/a badge designs made in proper metals).

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Alan O

But Andy that is exactly what contempory collectors recorded was happening in the early 70s. Old dies were bought from manufacturers and pressed back in to service to meet the demand from collectors. Soon supplanted by new dies and fantsy badges (a/a badge designs made in proper metals).

In that case please show me an example?

Andy

[Alan O]

Pick up your copy of Gaylor's book or K&K Vol 2 and read it for yourself.

Why this obsession to discredit contempory accounts? What are you trying to prove here?

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Hi Mike,

To reinforce what Mike said. Correspondence like this is quite common in the National Archives with, as I understand, the War Office/MoD footing at least part, if not all, of the cost for the dies themselves.

Regards

Chris

Oh, and thanks for the copy invoice I showed by the way, I have yet to obtain the complete file WO/72/18075 RAOC Badges 1946-1949 and its predecessor/successor files from the NA but this referance is a good starting point

[Alan O]

Andy,

Correct: most are fakes however it is untrue to say that no original dies were ever used to make restrike badges. It's not 'hogwash'. There is no personal attck here but let's stick to facts otherwise such views will allow dealers to peddle such restrikes as the genuine article just like they have been able to peddle a/a badges as genuine military badges up to now. I remember quite clealry a well known dealer refuting the idea that a/a badges had ever been faked and he was a self-declared expert on such badges.
Alan

[2747andy]

Alan,
I have not said no original dies were used to make "Restrikes" and I will post images of a possible example soon! Still waiting to see some examples of restrikes though?

Andy