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  #31  
Old 23-09-11, 06:03 PM
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RCN RCN is offline
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Collishaw?
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  #32  
Old 23-09-11, 08:58 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Collishaw!
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  #33  
Old 28-09-11, 05:29 AM
Shiner Shiner is offline
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Ahoy:
I recently came across a book entitled Rank & Rate (Royal Navy Officer's Insignia Since 1856) by E.C. Coleman published by The Crowood Press 2009, ISBN 978 1 84797 138 8.
Chock-a-block with photos, colour illustrations and detail regarding various branches including info on the RNAS. If I may quote segments:
"Between 1912 and 1914 Royal Navy aviation consisted of the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps... On 1 July, 1914 (this unsatisfactory arrangement) came to an end) when the Naval Wing was placed completely under admiralty control as the Royal Navy Air Service." The author continues with very detailed information on the introduction of the eagle above the executive curl on the sleeve rank.
With respect to the cap badge, he continues in a separate chapter that:
"Officers of the RNAS were considered to be a part of the Royal Navy Military Branch... officers transferring to the RNAS continued to wear the RN cap badge, officers who directly entered the RNAS wore the RNAS eagle in place of the anchor."
I hope that helps.
I have attached a metal cap badge from the Armoured Car Division to elaborate on the expanse of the RNAS. I tried to attach a photo of the vehicle depicted in the badge, but to no avail. Additionally, I had the misfortune of coming across a repro of this badge that lacked certain details shown in the original. I shall add that to the rogues gallery at a later time.
I hope this helps cast some light on the subject. great collection of hats, by the way.
Shiner

Last edited by Shiner; 28-09-11 at 05:37 AM. Reason: left out a curcial word
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  #34  
Old 14-01-12, 01:12 AM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Thanks for the info, Shiner.

Someone sent me a photo showing 47 Squadron and Collishaw in this same hybrid uniform (pictured above) clearly dating it to South Russia in 1919.



In a post that was lost when this thread was moved from the RAF category to here, Zob wrote:

They had a habit in the early transition period of converting older pattern badges to make up what they thought the new RAF badge was supposed to look like. Co of 10 Naval Sqn and later 47 Sqn RAF in Russia.

Zob raises there an interesting point about "transition" periods and availability. I have been told that all shortages of RAF uniform bits would have been resolved by 1919, especially for some one as senior and celebrated as Collishaw. If the CO wants to know what the new RAF badge looks like he only has to look at the fellow next to him.

I cannot believe that in 1919 Collishaw CB, DSO & Bar, OBE, DSC, DFC couldn't lay his hands on a single RAF cap badge by mid 1919 to conform with regulations.

But in the photo there are officers dressed in a range from unadapted RNAS uniforms to complete and up-to-date RAF uniforms. So there is still vanity badging going on and a pretty extensive wearing out period despite what must be a very official desire by the RAF to see everyone looking uniform especially in the postwar period.

So it seems proof positive that Collishaw dressed this way because he wanted to and it was tolerated, at the very least in Russia, and wherever that studio portrait was photographed.

Therefore Collishaw is proof positive of some unofficial, or semi-official distinctive element, from that period 1919 to 1924 (or pre-FAA) for an ex-RNAS pilot.

Back to the Gieves cap that began this post...

Best hypotheses so far, in what I think is descending order of likelihood...

1. 1919-1924 distinctive worn (or tolerated!) by ex-RNAS?
2. RAF on attachment to RN?
3. RN officer attached to FAA pre 1937?
4. 1924-1937 FAA of the RAF?

Or the cap could be humped-up to deceive.

Collishaw opens the door to proof that in some quarters a distinctive which departed from the RAF regs was tolerated early on postwar. I'll be back with a date on that Gieves label which will lend credence or eliminate #1.

Could someone else weigh in on their opinion of the RN portion of the badge, whether the bullion is early or late? Then we'll know if it belongs on that hat.

Rgds

Last edited by Aerowallah; 14-01-12 at 02:02 AM.
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  #35  
Old 14-01-12, 01:27 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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A very prompt response from G&H!

The cap with the Gieves label dates it to the 1920-1939 when Gieves were based in Bond Street, W1.

I would suggest the badge is a personal creation of the wearer - it looks like Gieves probably removed the anchor and added the brass eagle. I think you may well be right an RN Officer attached to the RAF but almost impossible to say without knowing the service history of the original owner.

Hope this helps in some small way.
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  #36  
Old 14-01-12, 05:20 PM
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Ray6930 Ray6930 is offline
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Default Can you get more from G&H archives?

Afternoon All
As you have a name in the cap and G&H are able to ID the lable & state they would have done the conversion work on the badge, is it possible that their archives might contain details of the original owner - which in turn might lead to the ability to make enquiries into their service
Just a thought
Ray
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  #37  
Old 14-01-12, 07:22 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Agreed. I didn't want to importune helpful Mr Carr so soon. SAS1 knows the archivist there. Perhaps I'll badger them...
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  #38  
Old 14-01-12, 11:39 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Received an email with an interesting comment...

"Other photos I have of FAA pilots in the early 1930's show the use of the RN cap badge exclusively. The Senior Service was (and is) usually very ardent about the correctness of uniform, though I have a first FAA pilot badge (issued 1926) which came from the uniform of a Rear Admiral still in service in the 1960s! He was totally breaking regs wearing that wing after 1938......but he did! He was even ADC to the Queen for a while and wore it on that duty! There are obviously exceptions to every rule...."
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  #39  
Old 15-01-12, 01:28 AM
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fougasse1940 fougasse1940 is offline
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"There are obviously exceptions to every rule...."

That should be on the 'masthead' of this Forum.

Rgds,

Thomas.
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  #40  
Old 15-01-12, 03:06 PM
oldlincolnian oldlincolnian is offline
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Default Armoured car division badges

I would really like to put to bed the notion that these oval crowned badges are cap badges. This is NOT so. These are (admittedly large) COLLAR badges worn by RNAS armoured car personnel

Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiner View Post
Ahoy:
I recently came across a book entitled Rank & Rate (Royal Navy Officer's Insignia Since 1856) by E.C. Coleman published by The Crowood Press 2009, ISBN 978 1 84797 138 8.
Chock-a-block with photos, colour illustrations and detail regarding various branches including info on the RNAS. If I may quote segments:
"Between 1912 and 1914 Royal Navy aviation consisted of the Naval Wing of the Royal Flying Corps... On 1 July, 1914 (this unsatisfactory arrangement) came to an end) when the Naval Wing was placed completely under admiralty control as the Royal Navy Air Service." The author continues with very detailed information on the introduction of the eagle above the executive curl on the sleeve rank.
With respect to the cap badge, he continues in a separate chapter that:
"Officers of the RNAS were considered to be a part of the Royal Navy Military Branch... officers transferring to the RNAS continued to wear the RN cap badge, officers who directly entered the RNAS wore the RNAS eagle in place of the anchor."
I hope that helps.
I have attached a metal cap badge from the Armoured Car Division to elaborate on the expanse of the RNAS. I tried to attach a photo of the vehicle depicted in the badge, but to no avail. Additionally, I had the misfortune of coming across a repro of this badge that lacked certain details shown in the original. I shall add that to the rogues gallery at a later time.
I hope this helps cast some light on the subject. great collection of hats, by the way.
Shiner
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  #41  
Old 15-01-12, 07:38 PM
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Peter Brydon Peter Brydon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
"There are obviously exceptions to every rule...."

That should be on the 'masthead' of this Forum.

Rgds,

Thomas.
Thomas

I couldnt agree more.

Peter
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  #42  
Old 15-01-12, 09:39 PM
Aerowallah Aerowallah is offline
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Yup, an old Lincolnian told me that!
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  #43  
Old 05-03-12, 03:00 PM
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tynesideirish tynesideirish is offline
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Hate restarting old threads but this is better suited here than on a new one.

A recent large unit photograph I acquired of an RNAS squadron. The Other Ranks wear Solar Topi's and the Officers wear the eagle above the executive curl on the sleeve rank.

Superb. I don't collect to RAF or RNAS but still think it is a great photo. Sorry just looked at my scan and it has come out really badly. I've a lovely clear photo but my scanner isn't up to it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RNAS.jpg (72.8 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg Scan10001.jpg (41.7 KB, 19 views)

Last edited by tynesideirish; 05-03-12 at 03:11 PM.
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