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#1
03-09-10, 07:44 PM
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16th Welsh (Cardiff City) Service Battn Welsh Regt
A little taster on this most misquoted battalion.
They are not the Cardiff Pals, that was the 11th Battn. I now have all the paperwork that goes with what they were wearing and will sort this out over the next few weeks as the summer holidays have come to an end (thank God with two kids at 7 & 4 who have been off for 7 weeks). Just to save some time, the Officers only officilally wore regulation pattern regimental collar badges, whatever certain dealers try and tell you. I have the Adjutant's (at the time) confirmation on this. Here's the Brigade confirmation to start with. If you ever come across one with a slider/shank don't touch it. My thanks in this are due to a medal collecting friend of mine who has a very serious collection of Officer's medals to the Welsh Regiment. Diolch yn fawr Dave. Hwyl, 41st 
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#2
03-09-10, 10:06 PM
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What a fantastic find 41st! Can't wait to see the next post. Are you saying that the Bronze "officers" version is spurious?
One can't help wondering what the mentioned Pioneer Battalions insignia was.. Best, Neil
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#3
04-09-10, 08:49 AM
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Neil,
Yes, there was no Officer's version. I understand that there were two sets of sterling silver collars made, one for the CO and one for the Mayor. The Officer's bronze versions for offer on ebay are just cheap modern fantasy items and anything else offered as an Officer's is likely to be a standard pattern with a later applied finish. On the point of the reference to the 19th Battn I haven't started to look into that yet. The issue of the tower reference for the SWB battns also needs to be looked into. Hwyl, 41st
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#4
04-09-10, 10:06 AM
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This will be fascinating to piece together. I note the letter is undated, but refers to a divisional order on 4th March. This is quite some time following formation, which in itself raises a few questions as to insignia worn in the interim period. No doubt all will be revealed in due course
The only attributed metal shoulder title specific to the war raised Service battalions I have heard of is the RWF (1st London Welsh), but it looks like there may be others. Perhaps they didn't follow through with the proposals on the basis they had plenty of other issues to occupy themselves with at that time! I remember you very kindly sent me information on the 11th last year, and this post has revitalised my interest. I'll go back and look again! Best, Neil
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#5
04-09-10, 03:01 PM
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The 4th March referred to is of course 1915.
We can be certain of this as the letter states it is from 130th Brigade Welsh Army Corps. On the 29th April 1915 the Division was renumbered from the 43rd to the now well known 38th and this particular Brigade to the 115th. The 43rd Division headquarters was established at Colwyn Bay on the 19th January. We can assume that at least some of the collar badges had been issued by then as a copy letter I have to Capt. H. Morrey Salmon (who served as Adjutant to the 16th for a considerable time) mentions that some were issued in January at Porthcawl and the rest at Colwyn Bay. The writer states that he was wearing his before leaving for Colwyn bay in January 1915. Thus it was not a long lapse between the collar badges being approved for wear on the 19th November, 1914 (when they were formed) and their issue in January 1915. In the same letter, dated 15th December, 1929 the attached post script was added. This gives clear reference to the 'WELCH' shoulder titles. More to come later.
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#6
14-09-10, 12:15 PM
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Wonderful find Kevin, I've got some dated photographs of the 16th including the Male Voice choir somewhere and also a diary of one of the stretcher bearers - I'll scour the latter to see if there's any reference to the badges.
I note too from the document you've unearthed that there was a proposed 'distinctive badge' for the 19th, pioneer battalion and a sketch attached. Presumably they're referring to the crossed rifle and pick here, or is there something different denoted? Jon
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#7
14-09-10, 02:34 PM
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Still sat on the edge of our seats.. Several insignia issues here!?
Cheers, Neil
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#8
15-09-10, 08:05 PM
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The Manufacturer
Neil,
As you asked. Behold the manufacturer. How many times in this hobby are we able to do this? He's got the date wrong though, it should be Nov 5th, 1914 from everything else I've got. I've cropped some of the info off to avoid the obvious. Note the reference to the other badges. Mouthwatering, and something I'm going to look into. So yes, several insignia issues here. Jon, No they're not referring to the standard pioneeer badge, but something peculiar to that battalion which may never have been approved or issued. All this and to just the service battalions of one Regiment (although admittedley the best one, Regiment that is). Just shows how difficult this hobby is. Hwyl pawb, 41st Last edited by 41st; 16-09-10 at 07:48 AM.
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#9
15-09-10, 11:26 PM
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This will be great to piece together 41st. Look forward to more info as it unfolds. As you say, amazing to get hold of the manufacturer info...
In particular the issue of the Bronze collars, which you have clearly stated as fake. I don't have one of these as I simply have not found one that I like the look of. Perhaps understandable in light of this new info. My take so far is that we there might be some previously undocumented S/T's and possibly collars exclusive to the 19th, 16th and 11th Battalions....? Wonderful stuff, and keep up the good work! Iechyd da!, Neil
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#10
16-09-10, 08:15 AM
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That's a rare thing to have - the manufacturers details. As you say there seem to be several insignia issues here. The absence of examples of any other battalion-specific insignia (other than cloth) to the regiment would suggest to me that the Cardiff arms badge was the only one that made it into production. Unless of course you've come across something?
What'd ya think?
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#11
11-10-10, 11:56 PM
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16th Bronze.
I see that Bosleys are offering a bronze version in the 20th October auction. Can we still safely assume this is a fantasy badge ?? Lot 201 Described as "A correct thin die cast bronze version"
I don't have the catalogue yet, just looking at the online version. I am not sure if this mentions whether or not they are Hugh King items? Cheers, Neil
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#13
12-10-10, 11:06 AM
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Agreed. But the oracles have spoken, so it must be right!
The wording interests me. "Correct thin die cast" I can't help wonder where this came from. Cheers, Neil
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#15
12-10-10, 11:58 AM
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Alan,
Far from infallible, as I have learned to my detriment in the past...... caveat emptor. I can't help noticing how many OSD badges are in this time, or is it just me being paranoid? Perhaps someone has realised how difficult these are going to be for collectors going forward, and is unloading? Just my tuppence worth! Despite my misgivings, there is some cracking stuff on offer as always..... Cheers, Neil
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