British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Books by Forum Members


Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Infantry (& Guards) Badges

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-08-12, 11:34 AM
L1A1 L1A1 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 238
Default London Irish - change of badge from BB to w/m

Hello all

Been lucky with the London Regt badges lately and have obtained these two badges as well. Hopefully they will turn out as genuine as the last pair I obtained.

Many thanks to everyone who takes the time to have a look at the badges. I really appreciate you doing so

regards

L1A1
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 10th Hackney Front.jpg (50.3 KB, 56 views)
File Type: jpg 10th Hackney Rear.jpg (55.0 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg LIR Front.jpg (45.9 KB, 76 views)
File Type: jpg LIR Rear.jpg (48.6 KB, 71 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 14-08-12, 06:14 AM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

This is a summary of the information I acquired at the NA, regarding the w/m badge:



7th December 1922 - the C.O. of the 18th Battalion, County of London Regiment, writes to the Secretary of the T.A. Association, requesting authorisation for the Regiment have its black cap badge changed to 'silver', as worn by the Royal Ulster Rifles. The C.O. is under the impression that such a change would incur little or no extra expense to implement.

14th December 1922 - the Secretary of the T.A. Association writes to the War Office, forwarding a copy of the C.O.'s application letter.

4th January 1923 - the Director General of the T.A. writes to the Secretary of the T.A. Association, informing him that the current stock of badges amounts to 3836, and that as a result a change of pattern could not be sanctioned, unless the Regiment was prepared to draw the stock at a cost of 32.

11th January 1923 - the C.O. of the London Irish, writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. stating his disappointment that the change in issue of badges cannot be made. He points out that an expenditure of 32 would not be justifiable, given the Regiment's financial position, and asks when the change might be sanctioned, as he is very anxious to implement the 'silver' badge. As an alternative, he goes on to enquire as to the possibility of perhaps altering the present stock of badges by 'dipping or some such method'.

13th January 1923 - the Secretary of the T.A.A. writes to the War Office, asking if it would be possible to carry out the suggestion made by the London Irish C.O. at a lower cost than that involved in the purchase of the whole remaining stock of black badges.

24th January 1923 - the Royal Army Clothing Department, forwards three badges to the badge manufacturer, Firmin & Sons Ltd., asking if they could alter their colour from black to silver, pointing out that the silvering should be of such a nature that cleaning with a brass brush should not cause the silver to be rubbed off. The R.A.C.D. asks if the alteration would be practicable, and what Firmin, would charge to alter 3836 similar badges.

25th January 1923 - Firmin, replies to the R.A.C.D. stating that they are of the opinion that such an alteration would be absolutely impracticable, as (in their opinion) no amount of silvering could withstand cleaning by the user. However, they state that they have sent the query to their Birmingham Works for confirmation.

27th January 1923 - Firmin write again to the R.A.C.D. suggesting that as the badges are made of yellow metal, they could be nickel-plated, at a cost of eleven shillings per gross. Firmin are of the opinion that nickel-plating would last quite a good time with 'ordinary treatment', then go on to suggest that if the unit was prepared to pay fifteen shillings per gross, a thicker coating of nickel could be applied to the badges.

2nd February 1923 - the A.D.O.S. writes to Firmin, asking them to go ahead with the thicker coating of nickel (now quoted at 12/3 per gross) and submit them to the Chief Inspector Stores and Clothing, for inspection.

5th March 1923 - Director-General of the T.A. writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. telling him that the entire existing stock of 3836 badges can be nickel-plated at a cost of 14.13.0d. He adds that ordinary metal polishes should not be used on them as this would wear off the plating. He encloses three samples and states that the unit is authorised to have the stock plated at its own expense until the present stock is exhausted, and the the samples should be returned to him with their reply.

12th April 1923 - the C.O. of the London Irish, forwards to the Secretary of the T.A.A. two nickel-plated badges. One, with brighter plating, is from a private company by the name of 'Harris Plating Works', and a duller pattern is from the War Office. He says that the War Office estimate for plating 3500 cap badges amounts to 16.6.4d, whereas the estimate from the private firm amounts to only 10. He encloses the estimate from Harris', for 10, which he says he proposes to pay.

13th April 1923 - the Secretary of the T.A.A. writes to the War Office, stating his opinion that the plating suggested by the London Irish, is distinctly preferable to sample submitted by the R.A.C.D. He asks if the entire stock of remaining badges can be issued to the Association, which would then arrange for Harris Plating Works, to plate them. He adds that if this could be arranged, then the Association would undertake to issue future supplies of the badges, or return the bulk of the badges to the R.A.C.D. of the freshly plated badges to be issued in the customary manner.

26th April 1923 - the Director of Equipment and Ordnance Stores writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. stating no objection to the Secretary's proposal, but advising him that once the work has been carried out, the badges should be returned to the R.A.C.D. in Pimlico, London, for re-issue in the ordinary way to meet future requirements.



Here is the actual badge contained within the NA file which (I presume) was one of the original examples sent for plating:

18th CoL NA.jpg

As you can see, it has the so-called 'hairpin' slider, which leads me to suspect (and it is merely my theory) that any w/m London Irish badge with a hairpin slider could well have been part of the original 3836 badges submitted for plating when the unit changed from BB badges.

PJ

Last edited by Peter J; 02-05-13 at 07:18 AM. Reason: Typo corrections
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 14-08-12, 12:08 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,157
Default

Peter J

thank you for sharing your research, I had not come across that data before, may I ask the file reference at the NA that it came from please?

I will add what I know, the WM version of the London Irish O/R cap badge was sealed as on 16 May 1923 as sealed pattern number 3796 (source WO359 VOL 18 P65)

John
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 14-08-12, 01:58 PM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hello John,

Thanks for the extra info.

Here are the NA file details:

WO 32/18635
18th (County of London Battalion) London Regiment
Alteration to Silver of Black Cap Badge

Regards,

Peter.

Last edited by Alan O; 14-08-12 at 03:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 14-08-12, 04:39 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,557
Default

This photo is circa 1918 judging by the lack of medal ribbons but the 2 overseas chevrons on his cuff. The badge is certainly not blackened so either it is plain brass or a very unofficial w/m.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LONDON IRISH WW1.jpg (35.8 KB, 89 views)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 14-08-12, 06:46 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,157
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan O View Post
This photo is circa 1918 judging by the lack of medal ribbons but the 2 overseas chevrons on his cuff. The badge is certainly not blackened so either it is plain brass or a very unofficial w/m.
Alan

Certainly an intriguing photo. According to the RACD list of changes the Blackened Badge was re-sealed on 24 July 1916 as SPN 9036. This resealing brought about on the assumption of supply responsability by the War Office fron the TFA. Source WO 359 vol 16 page 24. So as "late" as 1916 there is documentary evidence that the issued badge was Black, changing officially to WM by 1923 (as evidenced by the other posts).

When I get time I will look at the various materials I have to check for any references photographic or otherwise to WM badges in use prior to 1923 by other ranks. I do not recall seing any other images of the LIR during this time period wearing non blackened badges - have you seen much evidence?

I find this an interesting thread, I hope L1AI does not it mind it being momentarily sidetracked. I believe your London Irish Badge is fine by the way.

John
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 14-08-12, 08:27 PM
Tinto's Avatar
Tinto Tinto is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Gisborne, New Zealand
Posts: 2,514
Default

Hi All,
Here's an example of a hairpin slidered "silvered" badge, obviously the silvering has been rubbed off on front.
Cheers, Tinto
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LondonIrishsilvered.jpg (58.1 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg LondonIrishsilveredrev.jpg (57.2 KB, 83 views)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 15-08-12, 06:00 AM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

18th a.jpg18th b.jpg
..........
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 15-08-12, 02:11 PM
John Mulcahy's Avatar
John Mulcahy John Mulcahy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 2,157
Default

I have looked through the photographic resources I have,the only ones being of real use for photographic evidence being a copy of 'The Pipes and Drums of The London Irish Rfiles, 1906 -2006' and the relevant copy of The Regiment magazine. All I see is blackened cap badges for the perior prior to 1920.

I did a very cursory search on the web and found a most interesting thread on the Great War Forum.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...pic=86960&st=0

the cap badges on this thread are all black also (at least the regiment's ones) but for those of you with access to that forum post 8 shows a blackened badge - that of the R.I.C. badge in use and post 17 though less clear, of a seperate individual also shows what I think is an R.I.C. pattern badge.

John
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 29-08-12, 01:01 PM
2747andy 2747andy is offline
Former Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Porthcawl, South Wales
Posts: 7,688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter J View Post
This is a summary of the information I acquired at the NA, regarding the w/m badge:



7th December 1922 - the C.O. of the 18th Battalion, County of London Regiment, writes to the Secretary of the T.A. Association, requesting authorisation for the Regiment have its black cap badge changed to 'silver', as worn by the Royal Ulster Rifles. The C.O. is under the impression that such a change would incur little or no extra expense to implement.

14th December 1922 - the Secretary of the T.A. Association writes to the War Office, forwarding a copy of the C.O.'s application letter.

4th January 1923 - the Director General of the T.A. writes to the Secretary of the T.A. Association, informing him that the current stock of badges amounts to 3836, and that as a result a change of pattern could not be sanctioned, unless the Regiment was prepared to draw the stock at a cost of 32.

11th January 1923 - the C.O. of the London Irish, writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. stating his disappointment that the change in issue of badges cannot be made. He points out that an expenditure of 32 would not be justifiabe, given the Regiment's financial position, and asks when the change might be sanctioned, as he is very anxious to implement the 'silver' badge. As an alternative, he goes on to enquire as to the possibility of perhaps altering the present stock of badges by 'dipping or some such method'.

13th January 1923 - the Secretary of the T.A.A. writes to the War Office, asking if it would be possible to carry out the suggestion made by the London Irish C.O. at a lower cost than that involved in the purchase of the whole remaining stock of black badges.

24th January 1923 - the Royal Army Clothing Department, forwards three badges to the badge manufacturer, Firmin & Sons Ltd., asking if they could alter their colour from black to silver, pointing out that the silvering should be of such a nature that cleaning with a brass brush should not cause the silver to be rubbed off. The R.A.C.D. asks if the alteration would be practicable, and what Firmin, would charge to alter 3836 similar badges.

25th January 1923 - Firmin, replies to the R.A.C.D. stating that they are of the opinion that such an alteration would be absolutely impracticable, as (in their opinion) no amount of silvering could withstand cleaning by the user. However, they state that they have sent the query to their Birmingham Works for confirmation.

27th January 1923 - Firmin write again to the R.A.C.D. suggesting that as the badges are made of yellow metal, they could be nickel-plated, at a cost of eleven shillings per gross. Firmin are of the opinion that nickel-plating would last quite a good time with 'ordinary treatment', then go on to suggest that if the unit was prepared to pay fifteen sillings per gross, a thicker coating of nickel could be applied to the badges.

2nd February 1923 - the A.D.O.S. writes to Firmin, asking them to go ahead with the thicker coating of nickel (now quoted at 12/3 per gross) and submit them to the Chief Inspector Stores and Clothing, for inspection.

5th March 1923 - Director-General of the T.A. writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. telling him that the entire existing stock of 3836 badges can be nickel-plated at a cost of 14.13.0d. He adds that ordinary metal polishes should not be used on them as this would wear off the plating. He encloses three samples and states that the unit is authorised to have the stock plated at its own expense until the present stock is exhausted, and the the samples should be returned to him with their reply.

12th April 1923 - the C.O. of the London Irish, forwards to the Secretary of the T.A.A. two nickel-plated badges. One, with brighter plating, is from a private company by the name of 'Harris Plating Works', and a duller pattern is from the War Office. He says that the War Office estimate for plating 3500 cap badges amounts to 16.6.4d, whereas the estimate from the private firm amounts to only 10. He encloses the estimate from Harris', for 10, which he says he proposes to pay.

13th April 1923 - the Secretary of the T.A.A. writes to the War Office, stating his opinion that the plating suggested by the London Irish, is distinctly preferable to sample submitted by the R.A.C.D. He asks if the entire stock of remaining badges can be issued to the Association, which would then arrange for Harris Plating Works, to plate them. He adds that if this could be arranged, then the Association would undertake to issue future supplies of the badges, or return the bulk of the badges to the R.A.C.D. of the freshly plated badges to be issued in the customary manner.

26th April 1923 - the Director of Equipment and Ordnance Stores writes to the Secretary of the T.A.A. stating no objection to the Secretary's proposal, but advising him that once the work has been carried out, the badges should be returned to the R.A.C.D. in Pimlico, London, for re-issue in the ordinary way to meet future requirements.



Here is the actual badge contained within the NA file which (I presume) was one of the original examples sent for plating:

Attachment 67895

As you can see, it has the so-called 'hairpin' slider, which leads me to suspect (and it is merely my theory) that any w/m London Irish badge with a haipin slider could well have been part of the original 3836 badges submitted for plating when the unit changed from BB badges.

PJ
This looks like an example of the "Duller" badge?

Andy
Attached Images
File Type: jpg DSCF1001 (2).jpg (67.3 KB, 62 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1003 (3).jpg (73.4 KB, 55 views)
File Type: jpg DSCF1004 (3).jpg (33.3 KB, 55 views)
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 29-08-12, 05:37 PM
Peter J
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
This looks like an example of the "Duller" badge?

Andy
A very nice example too, by the look of it, Andy.

Peter.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-12-15, 08:29 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,557
Default

A nice close up of a WW1 blackened badge.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WW1 18TH LONDON.jpg (53.0 KB, 33 views)
File Type: png WW1 18TH LONDON2.png (52.4 KB, 43 views)
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 17-08-19, 12:24 PM
Alan O's Avatar
Alan O Alan O is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 9,557
Default

EJ Martin wrote and article in WW2 about the London Regiment.

He attributed the change to a change from the peaked cap to the caubeen.

This would seem a sensible explanation to me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg LR11.jpg (81.4 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg LR12.jpg (80.8 KB, 8 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:29 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.